Growth In Reverse (Newsletter Growth & Email Marketing)

AUDIO - CJ Gustafson on Growth In Reverse Podcast
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CJ Gustafson: [00:00:00] When you did the growth in reverse, write up on me, I was like, I made it. I peaked. You either die a newsletter or live long enough to become a podcast, which I'm sure you can appreciate. If somebody told me two years ago that like a stadium size of people would listen to me talk about metrics and stuff, I'd be like, bullshit people.

Are always looking for great content, and if you can make someone's life easier, they will give you the platform to do so and they may even pay you.

Chenell Basilio: Cj, this has been a long time coming. I know we met at the newsletter conference a couple years ago, um, and I've been following your, your newsletter for a while now. Wrote a deep dive on you. Earlier this year and just really enjoyed the whole process of getting to learn more about your business, your newsletter, everything.

So excited to have you on the show. Thanks for coming.

CJ Gustafson: This is a total trip because I've been reading growth in reverse like for years and years because like I'm, I'm like obsessive compulsive with just like trying to find any edge and then. I've been [00:01:00] listening to the podcast that you and Dylan have been doing for a while.

So what do they say on sports radio? They're like, first time, long time. Yeah. Calling it, yeah. Long time listener. First time caller. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome. Do you wanna give us like the quick, I don't know, 32nd backstory of like what you write about how you got into this, that kind of thing?

CJ Gustafson: Yeah. So. Didn't know this could be a career, but here we are. Um, I'm CJ and I'm a tech CFO by trade. So I got my start coming outta college doing consulting for PWC. I kind of felt like a financial tourist there where I was popping in and out. And then I got, um, the opportunity to work at a private equity company.

Where like I was responsible for valuing like how much these things are worth. And that was like a true grind, like hour wise and just learning like the hard skills that were required to, to do the math. And I think in both of those I was probably like a a B minus, if I'm being honest. Like it looked cool on LinkedIn, but like I don't think I was totally that great at them.

And I could have went to business school, but I was [00:02:00] like, I kind of wanna make money. So I started working at Tech Startup. And it's funny 'cause like nobody in college tells you that that's even like a viable career. To be the one who like budgets. I thought like to work in tech I had to either code, which I don't know how to do or sell, which I'm terrified of doing.

And like I found my product market fit with helping to like allocate the resources of like, this is how much we need to sell, this is how many people we can hire. And so like I got my come up doing what they call financial planning and analysis and that eventually led to me becoming a CFO and. This whole time I was terrified of not remembering like the playbook that I was learning, or I call it earning because like you're, you're on the ground, you're getting exposed to these like secrets of running a company and, and making it work.

So I started a newsletter called Mostly Metrics, and it had many iterations, some of which are kind of embarrassing to look back on, but that eventually led to me having a pretty sizable following on Substack where I write for. Mainly CFOs, aspiring CFOs, and I kind [00:03:00] of look at it like anyone who's obsessed with business and how to make your operations more, more profitable.

And then you either die a newsletter or live long enough to become a podcast, which I'm sure you can appreciate. And that led to me starting the Run the Numbers podcast where uh, it's kinda like mostly metrics, but an audio form. And I interview a lot of world class CFOs and investors.

Chenell Basilio: And for people who are thinking like, oh man, finance, like CFO, like, that's not my wheelhouse.

CJ's content is so good. Like the dad jokes alone would keep me reading, like, I don't understand anything you write about. But then I'm like, dog picks and dad jokes and memes, like, I'm here for it. So I really love the, uh, the comedy you add into there.

CJ Gustafson: Say you, uh, you come for the gifts and then you stay for like the CAC payback calculations.

Dylan Redekop: That's

CJ Gustafson: what I always stick ground

Dylan Redekop: for.

Chenell Basilio: That's amazing.

Dylan Redekop: I think my first introduction to your newsletter was Chenell when she was kind of prepping for her deep dive. She shared like your welcome email, I believe it was, and you had like, [00:04:00] you know, the Miller Time beer flying across and it was just like, okay, this vibe, this is a vibe I can.

I can dig, like this is, this is fun. A lot of fun. Different than what I would expect from a newsletter, from A CFO for sure. So like, where did that all come from? Like that whole vibe and ethos and like, you know, Miller time, um, angle, I guess. So first of all, I love Miller Light.

CJ Gustafson: I don't know why they haven't sponsored my podcast yet.

I was, I was obsessed with Bill Simmons. Growing up, I still am. Uh, back when he was writing Grantland. And so for those who don't know, it's kind of like the combination of sports and pop culture. And I always thought like, oh, it'd be so cool if somebody could do something similar, but for business and to have more personality injected into it.

And what resonated with me is he made it cool to be like a fan of what you were writing about, like a lot of the sports writers back then. They covered it from like this like really grumpy angle of like, oh, I can't like, enjoy what I'm doing. I'm like, dude, you have the best job in the world. Why? Why wouldn't you enjoy that?

And so I kind of wanted to [00:05:00] take that to finance and I slowly discovered that like there's a lot of. There's a lot of really shitty business content online that like was written by AI before AI even existed. Mm-hmm. Where it's basically just like this DRL of just like, I don't know, it's, it's very sterile.

It's not, it's not much of an on-ramp to make somebody want to continue reading. And a lot of times they make it sound more complicated than it actually is. And that's like a flaw with the finance world where people have like this scarcity complex of like, oh, there's not enough to go around, so I'm gonna make it sound really complicated.

So other people can't. Can't understand. Mm-hmm. And what I found is like, I don't know, I, I never really totally, uh, fit the stereotype, I think for A CFO who wears like a belt and suspenders to work. And then I just kept leaning into, I wouldn't call it being unhinged, but like just my own personality quirks and I think.

People started to say, oh, it's kind of like I'm almost hanging out with CJ whenever I read the newsletter and like I see him as a real person and he's not saying that he knows everything. [00:06:00] And so over time like that just, it was odd that people were getting back to me more about like me being a person than what I was talking about.

And I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna, I think like Sam Par has the phrase like, let your freak flag fly. And it's not like I was trying to be weird or anything. I'm just like, oh, just be willing to talk about. Things that are interesting to you alongside things that you study pretty seriously and, and want to get right.

And like you, you take that part seriously, but like there's no reason to not have fun with it and inject some like human into it.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I think a lot of people will stray away from that and just try and go the super serious route. 'cause they're scared to like let their weirdness show, if you will. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, so I really appreciate that in your writing.

Dylan Redekop: I think it's like a USP that more and more people are gonna have to kinda adopt. Just like so much out there is Googleable or AI able, that content is kinda like this commodity. And so when you do stuff like, you know, have your awesome personality vibe, freak flag in your newsletter, [00:07:00] um, where you're like trying to get Miller to sponsor your newsletter by throwing memes and gif in it, like that's cool and that's fun and that's interesting.

And then you can back it up with like. Actual information that people really want, but they're gonna, they're gonna stay. I think they'll, in some ways, they'll come for that information, but they'll stay for your personality to some degree and for, for your humor and, and all that sort of thing.

CJ Gustafson: And I look at it like a competitive moat in a lot of ways.

Yeah. Like you may have the recipe, but you don't have the ingredients to copy it. Like, I don't have this. This person is like your competitor or something. It's like, well, they app, they can't be me. And I'm not saying like I'm the best at anything. I'm just very different in the way that I approach it. And I think that's like a durable mode over time.

Whereas if I was just reciting facts like anyone could do that, but it's like, can, can you make it interesting? Do have you actually seen every episode of The Wire in Breaking Bad and know how to like link that back to like telling a story about m and a. Like, I, I think that's what makes people also remember, I don't know, I think it's that Maya Angelo [00:08:00] quote that people won't remember what you said, but they'll remember how they made you feel.

Like, I, I hope that people feel a different way when they read my stuff.

Chenell Basilio: I love that. Totally. Yeah. I definitely think people feel a different way 'cause. You could just look at some of the comments and it's like, look at this guy's post. Like they're just, they love your personality being injected into it.

And I think it's just like a huge, they also love my dog mug that you have

CJ Gustafson: my dog. So there's been like this ongoing joke and it got kind of outta hand. So just like for context, uh, when I was trying to get it up and running, I said, Hey, for everyone, thousand new subscribers, I'll buy my dog Walter and ice cream.

And, um, then like growth started to take off and I was buying him an ice cream like every other week. And, but now I like, we have to buy like hoodie cups and he'll stand in front of the, the freezer every night and scratch the floor until we give him one. So it's actually evolved until he gets an ice cream every single night, which like wow is probably not great for his.

But I dunno.

Chenell Basilio: That's incredible. You even built like a website called like mostly ice cream.com [00:09:00] for him, which doesn't work anymore from what I can see, but that was hilarious. Yeah, I love their domain

CJ Gustafson: laps. I need to get it again, so nobody take it. But my friend Nicholas, who uh, runs mega Hit Design that for me as a joke.

So Good. That's awesome.

Dylan Redekop: That's awesome. Well, why don't we get into some numbers, because I think we've been talking about like your vibe and everything, which we love. But let's talk about like some, some numbers. So where's the newsletter at in terms of subscribers and if you're willing to share a general number of, 'cause you've got a paid version as well.

Um, kinda a general idea of paid subscribers too. Um, I'm curious to learn about that.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, I'm at 66,000 free today. And then as Substack shows, I have over a thousand paid. Like my model is actually almost 90% driven by ad revenue, which I think is different than a lot of people on Substack. And that that also makes me wonder in the back of my head, like if Substack is the right place for me, long term, now that I'm building not just a newsletter, but a whole media company with a podcast, and I launch a second newsletter as well, [00:10:00] but I'm in a spot where my ICP, my ideal customer profile CFOs, they have a lot of power in terms of.

What gets purchased. So not only do they get paid pretty well, but like they decide for the whole company what you're gonna buy. And so a lot of my sponsors are selling things that are hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so if they just get one, one purchase from that, it makes sense. And so part of it's like just the structural elements of like who reads it, what they buy, what they're interested in.

But um, I kind of look at like the subscription. As like, it's very important. I mean, that's how, how I, how I pay the bills and stuff. But it's, uh, it's definitely secondary to the advertising revenue.

Chenell Basilio: That's so interesting. So with sponsorships, I know you have a couple of different ways you work with companies, but what is like, I don't know, I, I just love the way you're working with sponsors.

I can see you on Twitter, you're commenting on their posts, you're retweeting things, and I'm sure that's not like included necessarily in the contract. No. Maybe it is. I don't knows, but I just, it's not, I'm curious how you think about like. Brand [00:11:00] partnerships and that kind of thing?

CJ Gustafson: Well, I think about it as a long-term relationship where like I, I understand first of all the buying habits of CFOs.

Like they have to trust you over time. And so like I want to trust my part, my brand partners who sponsor me and they. It's, it's like this mutual understanding that like it's a long-term game that you wanna play with long-term people. It started at first that I had a full-time job, so I didn't have time to go out and sell for every newsletter.

So I just said, you know what? You have to buy on a quarterly basis. And that was more like I didn't have Matthew who, who runs my sales, he's amazing and handles all our partnerships. I didn't have him yet. And I was still a full-time CFO, so I'm like, in order for this to work and me not lose sight of my day job, like you gotta sign up for a quarterly package.

And that ended up working amazing for the sponsors because you gotta think like you're not in the market to buy an ERP every month. You're not gonna switch up your billing system or your payments processor. So what ended up happening is like after like two months, they would start to see a bunch of deals fall.

'cause we had [00:12:00] built this trust with the customer and I think you need to hit a CFO, not. Three times, not five times, not seven times, probably 13 times. They have to hear from you. Mm-hmm. And I call it like the, the, the ground game and the air game where like ground games and newsletter, podcast is the air game.

You gotta surround them in a way where you build that trust over time just to be part of the consideration set when it is time to purchase. So it's kind of like you win the trust just to be known to them and then can you win the sale after that? And so I've designed everything quarterly minimums that you have to sign up for.

But what ends up happening is like, um, I haven't announced it yet, but I do have a big sponsor. We signed up for all of 2026 already. So we're halfway through 2025. Congrats. Yeah. And like it's a bigger deal than I ever thought would be possible. So like I'm very thankful for that, but it's because they saw the results of sticking with me over time.

Mm-hmm.

Dylan Redekop: And like

CJ Gustafson: having enough inertia to like spread your surface area for good things to happen that aligns with the sales cycle of, of who you, who you're going after.

Dylan Redekop: Whoa. Wow. That's crazy. So you probably have some follow up questions, Chenell, [00:13:00] um, but I, I'm really curious, like you publish, uh, is it once a week?

So I publish three times a week. Two are free, uh, and one is paid. So in, in terms of the two free newsletters, are those always sponsored with your quarterly sponsor? Correct. Yeah. Okay. So they're really different. So I have two quarterly sponsors per quarter then Okay. Through that. Got it. Okay. So it might be like one weekly edition basically.

They'll, they'll get a sponsorship Yeah. Per, per quarter. Okay. So cool. So, and so you've got quarter, oh, go ahead. Oh, no, no. I was just

CJ Gustafson: gonna say, so I come from the world of, um. Like accounting and finance, where you think of everything on a quarterly basis anyway. Yeah. So in my mind, like everything's on a 13 week cycle, doesn't matter.

And so like you're signing up for 13 cents with that. Or if you sign up for the, um, podcast, which we can talk about later, you're signing up for 24 episodes. 'cause we do four per month. But like, the way that my mind works is like, what, how many, how many activations do you get in a quarterly cycle? And so for the newsletter.

There are two sponsors who each get [00:14:00] 13 cents or 26. 'cause I'm sending 26 times per quarter. Can't believe I write that money. That's crazy.

Dylan Redekop: So in terms of the ads, I think this is a really good reminder for a lot of people listening who are selling like one-off newsletter ads. Um, guilty. Like I've definitely done that.

And shocker, they don't, you know, necessarily drive the results that the advertisers is hoping for. So I think it's a really good reminder. I dunno about for you Chenell, but for me, like you need to like bundle these things up to like a minimum probably of like a month, at least a monthly package if you're doing like a weekly send, for example.

Um, and a quarterly would be, would be even better. And we had Lex Roman who came on our, uh, not our podcast, but came into our community a few months ago and she just sells. Six months packages because she's like, I just want, I just wanna promote one person for six months and just like get them as much revenue and results as possible.

Chenell Basilio: Do you ever consider, like, or do you, you probably consider this obviously, but incorporating like newsletter and podcasts into one package or do you keep them completely separate?

CJ Gustafson: Yeah. Uh, more than half the partners will double up [00:15:00] and do both for a quarter.

Chenell Basilio: And so you just discount it based on, you know, if they're incorporating newsletter, podcasts.

CJ Gustafson: I never discount anything. So it's actually like a, a principle that we go by. Nice. Um, we know the value of the audience, so we never discount anything. Wow.

Chenell Basilio: That's pretty rare. I don't think I've heard that from many creators.

CJ Gustafson: I'm also a CFO, so I understand that it's a slippery slope and people expect upon renewal for that discount to continue.

So then you end up with an annuity stream. If you have a continuous partner that's at a a smaller rate. What's better to do actually, and this is a tip for creators, is to give away like one send for free if you have to do it, rather than give a discount. 'cause one send that goes away after, and then you have a larger base to renew upon.

But like discounts like. It all. It's also like a branding thing. Like I actually price all of my stuff. I want 50% of the the companies to say no just because it's too expensive. Right? Yeah. And then if they ask for a discount, then I know that it's probably not the right relationship because I also know back of the envelope what [00:16:00] their lifetime value to customer acquisition cost is and how to get there.

So I think like you have to study who you're working with and what their average transaction size is, and then how long a customer. Sticks around, but like, my advice would be to like, just stick to a strategy because if you give that inch, then you end up with a basket of sponsors and, and they all talk too.

Like, they'll find out like, oh, you gave him a $5,000. Like, I want that too. Like I just don't even wanna play that game. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: It's like if you give a mouse of cookie kind of situation. Yeah,

CJ Gustafson: totally. You said a precedent that you don't want. Totally. That like, uh, Scott Galloway said something that has always stuck with me.

He said, I have two prices. Really fucking expensive or free. And I like to be generous when it comes to the free stuff though. Like I, there's like, Bre Brex could text me right now and be like, dude, we just had like this product launch and like we're, we're trying to talk about it. I'll be like, no problem.

I will talk about that today for you. Like, 'cause I appreciate them as a partner long term or like, I'll jump into comments and just. Write funny stuff if their [00:17:00] CFO posts something for, for any of the companies that work with me, or I'll try to share 'em on, on podcasts. So I think you have to be generous from that perspective and be willing to be like a good partner who will go the extra mile.

But I don't think that means you have to compromise on price necessarily.

Chenell Basilio: On the topic of sponsors and brand deals, uh, you implemented what I ended up calling, like the triple stack approach where you were working with. Brand partner sponsors to essentially run paid guest posts. I i there, it's hard to like give a better name than that.

It could be considered like content licensing as well. But, uh, I really, really appreciate this approach. So you're essentially like getting paid by brands to republish your content that you've already written and then they link back to your stuff too. It's just like this huge, amazing flywheel that I can't stop talking about.

I think I've sh, I think I've talked about this in the last two. Talks I've given on stage and on this podcast, like every episode, because I'm just like, CJ's brilliant. I just can't get over it. Do you wanna explain? I think you're a brilliant one because

CJ Gustafson: I had no idea what I was doing. I was making it up.

I was like, I think [00:18:00] this is a good idea, but like, I didn't, I couldn't like summarize what the strategy was, but like when you wrote it up, I was like. I did do that. Wow. That's cool. That's incredible.

Dylan Redekop: Well, let's talk through it. For people who don't know, like ex, maybe explain it or sorry, Chenell you were gonna ask, ask something.

Chenell Basilio: No, no, no. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Okay.

Dylan Redekop: Well

CJ Gustafson: I think like what I noticed is a lot of the people who are. Creating the blog content for, it could be like a credit card company, it could be an FPA software, an ERP. There's somebody who has like a day job, and this is usually just like one component of it.

And they're always looking to fill those spots with like good content. And something I also notice is a lot of people in those roles, they probably don't come from that background, and they're not industry practitioners like they weren't A CFO before. And so what I leaned into was providing content that they could use on their site.

And at first it was free. There was one company that, like, I was just trying to grow the newsletter, I think it was at like 3000 subscribers. And I was like, can I do a guest post for you? And they're like, yeah. I was like, are [00:19:00] you really gonna, you're really gonna let me just be on your website? And so I did a guest post, and then I think I just got a little bit more ballsy where I was like.

Uh, I'll, I'll do guest posts for you, but you gotta pay me this amount. It'll be six posts, and by the way, I'm going to, I'm gonna link back to your site and I'll repost it on my site too. So then we'll have these network effects, which also filled a spot for me that I had to sell, like fill anyway for that week.

And so I think the lesson there is like. People are always looking for great content and if you can make someone's life easier, they will give you the platform to do so and they may even pay you.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I love that. And you run a paid newsletter, so these people, you're getting paid by the brand. These people can come back to your site and then end up paying you again 'cause they're gonna sign up as a paid newsletter subscriber.

I just, I love it. It's so good. Um, are you still doing a lot of those?

CJ Gustafson: Mm. I haven't been lately just because I got to a point where the, the packages for the newsletter were were pretty substantial, and so I didn't want to cannibalize it with one-offs, but it was a great way [00:20:00] to get the flywheel going.

That said, what I'm thinking about doing in the future is including. Interviews with CEOs of companies who sponsor my reports and saying, you can use our interview. I'll do a writeup on, uh, for you to use for your blog, and you can repurpose it there. So like, I'm still trying to find ways to get on people's website because it also gave me a ton of SEO cred that like, oh, you're searching for ERPs and there are four companies in the category that I'll link back.

Like, okay, that's a pretty good sign. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm trying to thread the needle here without, um. Without cannibalizing the main thing at this point.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, that makes sense. As far as growth goes, other than like getting in front of other software companies and that kind of thing, do you wanna talk through like maybe how you got your first 1000 subscribers, like that strategy you did on Twitter?

CJ Gustafson: This was back when it still worked. So I made a, a list of 20 terms that were relevant to me. Like stuff that, like if I saw it in my feed, it'd be like, oh, that, that like a stock based comp or like customer acquisition costs or net dollar people [00:21:00] probably rolling their eyes. But like the lesson is to find out which terms, and I say terms, but it's really like what virtual real estate you wanna own.

That's extremely specific. And so I made a list of 20 terms and every night when me and my wife would watch tv, she would have on like. Below deck or Real Housewives or something. So she'd be happy. But like I'd be on my phone and I'd be searching for those terms. And then whenever somebody said something about it, I would try to write something insightful and be like, oh, and by the way, if you, if you really want to nerd out, you should check out this post.

And so I had corresponding posts to all 20 of those terms that allowed me to link back. So essentially, like even today. There for certain terms, like if you search for like net dollar retention is a pretty good chance that will still come up. 'cause like it got a lot of likes after that. But like, my whole thing was like, I want people to feel like I'm everywhere If they're searching for a certain topic and like, I actually wasn't, I was only just on these extremely niche things, but like I was, I, I wanted them to find like I would be at the end of every single road for those terms no matter what.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. [00:22:00] I love that. Do you think that could still work on something like Substack or Reds or something?

CJ Gustafson: I don't know. I think, I think it can still work on Reddit if you don't get kicked outta the groups that's being kicked outta most of them for posting there. Um, but I think like you, you have to first find out where the people who are interested in your stuff goes.

So like notes like I enjoy sometimes, but then I realize when I look like less than 0.5 point, like less than 1% of my audience actually uses the Substack app. So there aren't many CFOs who are just on their couch looking at notes that night, so, right. That hasn't been too helpful for me. It's, it's just people who write on Substack talking about how much they love substack.

Chenell Basilio: That's interesting. I didn't realize you could see that in the back end of your stats of like how many are using the app. That makes sense. Yeah.

CJ Gustafson: Every time I send out an email, it tells me where they came from and the people who are reading on the Substack app, it's always less than 1%.

Dylan Redekop: Oh, okay. So Chenell you'd have to actually send a newsletter from Yeah.

Substack to figure that out. Totally. So that's [00:23:00] Twitter and, and you've been kicked outta Reddit. What about LinkedIn? 'cause I noticed you've got a decent following there as well, like over 17,000 followers on LinkedIn. What's been kind of your, I don't know, content strategy for lack of a. Better term there.

People

CJ Gustafson: love, um, charts with logos on them. I'll leave it at that. Uh, that's something I learned like in the private equity world, that people love a good market map, so that helps. Um, but honestly, like Brian Belfor had a great post about this recently, like LinkedIn is also dried up to a certain extent, where like they let all the creators in to make it like a spot that people would go for entertainment.

And less so just like a static yellow pages or database. And then they kind of shut the door on them, where like posts don't do as well anymore. So I still post there a lot. I think it's just two more concentrated audience, but like I think leading with visuals. Helps. Um, and anything that is either around m and a economic activity or compensation tends to do well.

And that's usually, [00:24:00] I think it's probably because people are a, a bit inherently selfish, so they always want to know like, what's in it for me? So I think you get a, whenever you post on LinkedIn, you have to think like the person reading it is probably reading it. Not for their employer, but for themselves.

So what's in it for that person to either make them better at their jobs so they can make more money or to present something that's like an opportunity for them to, to upskill.

Chenell Basilio: So are you still super focused on growth at this point? Like you're at 66,000, is there like. A new strategy you're, you're working through, aside from just posting on LinkedIn and I think reposting to Twitter, I don't know.

Is there like a new strategy you're doing? Are you more focused on just like monetization, like continuing to make your readers happy? I think I'm

CJ Gustafson: trying to find how to go deeper with certain readers because like. There. There's someone out there who's crazy enough to pay me, not $15 a month, but $30 a month.

It's like, how do you find them and then what do you offer them? So what I've been trying to lean into is within the paid offering, do more reports that are like more first party data. Because what I realized is now that [00:25:00] I have a large enough following of like people who actually have their hands on data, like it's one thing to have like a hundred thousand marketers who read your newsletter, they probably don't have access to the financial data of the company.

The people that read my newsletter have access to benchmarking results that I can use to create reports. So it's like the power of crowds. And so I've been leaning into that, but I mean, like, I, I always want to see it grow. I think I've also shifted a lot, not shifted, but like I was a full-time CFO before and now that I'm making content, I think like the other half of like, my brain is focused on the podcast and trying to grow that.

So I've been trying to grow the podcast, uh, probably more than the newsletter.

Dylan Redekop: Let's talk about the podcast. Sure. What's it called? Uh, when did you start it? Like at what point in like this content journey did you decide, Hey, I think a podcast is a great idea. Let's, uh, let's run with that.

CJ Gustafson: I've been doing the podcast for two years now.

It's hilarious because if you talk to anyone in my family, they're like, we can't get a word outta you at. At the dinner table and now you make a living doing a podcast. [00:26:00] I'm like, well, it's kind of different talking about stuff that like, I feel like I'm, I hope I'm uniquely qualified to speak to, so it's kinda like in my domain.

But yeah, it, it was something that I kind of stumbled into and was very nervous about doing it first, because I think with a newsletter you can hit send and it's just like you're writing, but like now it has your face and voice attached to it. It's a different relationship I think you have. At the same time, I think it's actually a more valuable relationship because the people spend an hour with you and get to know you.

So even though it's not as attributable probably to advertisers, it's like people are dedicating a full hour to hang out, read rather than five to 10 minutes for reading a newsletter. But I started at two years ago and now I'm 210 episodes in. If you want, I can talk about the process of like getting people to come on if, if that's helpful.

Let's hear it. So when nobody tells you about an interview podcast. As the first 50 guests, it's like pulling teeth. Like I would've had my dog on if he could talk as a guest, and that was like impossible. But luckily, like I had some great sponsors from a newsletter who referred me to people. [00:27:00] So like Brex hooked me up with their CFO at the time.

And then I had some people who were reading a newsletter who said, oh, I'll come on and be your guest. And so what you find with a podcast is you climb this ladder of people where one person leads to another. And so the first 50 were extremely hard to get on. The next 50, I actually hired somebody to help me with outbound and I would pay him based on like 200 bucks or something based on each person who would come onto the show.

And so I would say for every, like. 300 people, we outbound it like 10 would agree to come on. So that was just like a sheer numbers game of getting them to, to come. And so then probably like from one 20 to 200, almost every guest has been inbound, which is crazy. Hmm. So like it went from like this push to now a pull where I think I've had five of the last seven companies to IPO, their CFOs come on, like either before or after the IPO.

So it becomes like a, a, a media thing to do. Yeah. That amazes me because like I just think back [00:28:00] of how recent it was of how like I couldn't get anybody on to, to come and talk, but it's like how do you get into the current of like being a spot that communication firms wanna push people to? Because like, it goes back to what I was saying about like writing guest posts.

If they have a job to do, how can you make their job easier? And it has to be a great product that you're putting forward too, but like, how can you be available to solve their problem? And what I found is that CFOs are typically looked at as like back office people who like they can't get out in front of a camera.

And it's like if you can create a welcoming environment to make them look like a thought leader, you're doing the company a big favor too.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. And

CJ Gustafson: so it's kind of like a win-win for both of you. And a lot of the people who come on, they're at a point in their career I realize where like. They've done pretty well.

It's probably more about legacy for them at that point. And so can you give them a platform to share and be looked at as like, uh, someone who helped the next generation of people coming up. So I think like that subtle shift after like 50 to 100 people, like [00:29:00] help. Help my perspective of like how, how to recruit people to come on, but also how to present it as an opportunity so you get inbound.

Chenell Basilio: Nice. Yeah. You mentioned the, uh, the IPO thing. So when I did the deep dive a couple months ago, your top post on substack were showing like complete guides, masterclasses, like these really long form pieces about like one topic, but you went super deep and now I notice that you're shifting over to like these behind the IPO type pieces and those are starting to take over the top.

The top pieces on your Substack archive. So I think that's super interesting. Like, I don't know, I always talk about this 'cause my first deep dive was on Mario Gabrieli. He used to do S one, uh, report things. He would explain the S ones and it feels very similar. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you took inspiration from that and you're like, Hey, he's not doing it anymore.

Let me, uh, kind of do something adjacent.

CJ Gustafson: He was doing it. Jim and Ball was doing it. Alex Clayton was doing it, and I was obsessed with all of 'em. And I would read them, but it wasn't the way that I would write it. They actually have, uh, probably more facts and figures in there. I, I write mine [00:30:00] in a fashion that, like, you give it to somebody who's not from a finance background, and someone actually emailed me the other day and they said, dude, this S one breakdown, I don't know if you're gonna like this or not, but like, this is kind of like TikTok for finance.

Like, I can just consume this. It's bite sized. I understand what's going on. I have a couple facts to give to someone where I sound smarter. Like the gifts are really good too. So I just took it from a different angle and I was definitely inspired by them. I usually don't do anything that's current events 'cause I want it to be greenfield and you can come back to it.

But for this I was like, I think I have an opinion and I can whip this up pretty fast because it's like what I used to do like in my career. And um, those, those have easily become the most shared ones. Like yesterday, I, I googled Chime, IPO, and somehow I was like the second. Second result to come up, which like blew my mind.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, and I think in a way those are going to be evergreen, evergreen pieces because the way you wrote them and formatted 'em, you're explaining like how they got there also. So I think like they're going to last down the road of like, Hey, how do [00:31:00] IIPO just like this company? Like, and you have kind of a roadmap from those companies.

The

CJ Gustafson: craziest part about that is I was doing the Klarna S one writeup and somebody from the information reached out and they're like, Hey, can we talk to you about a quote? I was like, dude, I wrote this like on my couch after two beers. Yeah, sure.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome.

CJ Gustafson: And now I'm friends with them and we text all the time about IPOs, but it just shows like that the Internet's like the last true democracy where if you write something people like that's useful.

It doesn't matter if like you're a guy and you're addict. Real media outlets, and I say real with quotes, like the people will reach out and want to talk about it and you can make relationships.

Chenell Basilio: I think that. That's a great play. I really, that's awesome that they reach out. You never know where your next, like relationship's gonna come from online.

So cool. Yeah. Okay, so you kind of alluded to this, but I did see that you launched looking for leverage, like an a second newsletter. What is, what's going on there? I wanna hear all about that.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, so I went to this conference for CFOs and it was put on by a private equity, uh, company. And so like if people don't know, venture capital is [00:32:00] typically earlier on in a company's lifecycle when they're growing like crazy and they're burning a bunch of cash.

Some of the people that I really enjoy reading from, like the VC background, like you could say. Kyle Poer, um, growth on Hinge. That's really great. Kyle Harrison, just all Kyle's investing, I think 1 0 1 or 1 0 2, but what I noticed is like there are actually more private equity backed companies out there than venture capital backed companies, and these are companies that are usually larger.

Later stage and are focused on profits. And so I was at this conference and there were 52 CFOs in there, and they're talking about like completely different things. And I was like, there's nobody writing anything for these people, but it's such a big audience. Maybe it's not as sexy and it is in as many headlines, but like they, they consume content too.

Some of 'em actually consume mostly metrics. What if I did like a adjacent newsletter that's like somewhat similar but, but different. And so it's, it's definitely a smaller audience, but I'm trying to actually, like, my goal [00:33:00] is to create with this one the most valuable. Audience per reader out there. So like I always thought, wouldn't it be cool if you had a newsletter and it was just 32 people to 32 NFL owners?

Like I want to create an audience where it's just executives from private equity backed companies. And I know already that on the list, like the list is smaller than 10,000 today, but I have 2000 of the 9,000 PE back CFOs on there. So like, I think I'm on my way to creating a really valuable list and I, and I enjoy writing about that content too, because I feel like it's not well covered.

So it's kind of like, how can you take something that you started and then niche down even further? And, um, what's interesting about that is like, in terms of monetizing it, sponsors look at that is even more valuable on a per sponsor basis. Mm-hmm. Because you're telling them. Brought you further even down the funnel than the people you wanted to reach before.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. You've like amassed, that's their ideal target market. All like in one audience and it's like these people have money, make decisions, [00:34:00] and can be your customer. So that's smart.

Chenell Basilio: How are you writing two newsletters?

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, actually that's a great question. Uh,

CJ Gustafson: and a podcast.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah.

CJ Gustafson: That's my competitive advantage though.

Like people, I don't know, how do people go to work and sit at a desk for 10 hours? Um, it's just what I do now and it becomes just like the lens that you see the world through. So like I was writing, looking for leverage right before I jumped on this, it becomes just like a rhythm. That you get into. I do try to bank a lot of stuff where I'll write it and then I'll keep it there on the shelf for later.

I have so many mostly metrics. I probably have over 70 pieces that are 80% done. And so when I can't think of anything, I'll go back and just finish something new. But like my goal every day is to write something or podcast something before lunchtime every day, just to check that box, um, and then go on with the rest of the day.

But like, uh, something I took from Money KY is. He said, I don't take meetings before like 2:00 PM or something, so I don't take anything except for this podcast, which we're recording. [00:35:00] I don't take anything until 1:00 PM Eastern now. I don't do any meetings at all because like nobody's gonna wanna meet, meet with me after 1:00 PM if my writing and my podcasting sucks.

That's what I realized. So like I have to, I have to take care of the main thing first.

Chenell Basilio: I

CJ Gustafson: love that. That is smart.

Chenell Basilio: Feel very honored to be in the small group of people who you'll talk to before 1:00 PM

CJ Gustafson: Yes. Yeah. I want to pick up the phone from my mom before 1:00 PM so,

Chenell Basilio: oh, geez.

CJ Gustafson: Sorry, mom. Oh,

Chenell Basilio: it's great.

Yeah. Well, okay, so you have all these pieces of content. I'm curious like. You've talked about this before of like you will listen to other podcasts in this space and like through just conversations on the podcast that you run, you come up with topics to write about. So is that still your, like how you're coming up with topic ideas or are you Yeah.

Using other strategies Now, as much as I

CJ Gustafson: hate hearing my own voice, I take my dog for a walk every morning and I know that like my podcast drops on Monday. And Thursday. So I'll listen to that episode while I walk 'em, and hopefully I come up with one idea and then when I get back [00:36:00] to my desk, I pull up the transcript.

So I pay my producer a little bit extra to have like a. Really rock solid transcript that I can go into and try to pick out quotes that support what I'm doing. And then what I did is I created GPT by uploading over 200 transcripts. So I can just say like, have I talked to anybody about roll-up strategies in private equity?

I'd be like, yeah, you talked to this person, this person, this person. It's like, okay, now I have enough. And so what I've found is like, if I can think of the title for a piece and the title usually just starts with listening to a podcast. Either I've done or someone that I follow, like I can write the rest.

Then it's just finding supporting evidence and layering it on. But it's like, then I'm off to the races.

Chenell Basilio: That's super smart. Yeah. It's always weird hearing your voice on like another podcast or even your own, I might have to try that.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah. I also listened to it on 1.3 x. Some people are crazy. Listen to it on like two x, but I think that helps me just like, um, it helps me so my mind doesn't drift as much in between people talking.

I gotta like keep the cadence up a bit. Um, while I'm listening, [00:37:00] I don't know if anybody cares about that comment though.

Chenell Basilio: I do the same exact thing.

Dylan Redekop: I can't listen to anything under 1.5 just 'cause I, I find like, I'm just like, my mind drifts and I start getting bored or distracted. It's like that. I kind of, I don't know.

I need like the fast, faster speed. For some reason, yeah.

CJ Gustafson: I mean the inertia still is real though when it comes to like sitting down and writing something. I think when I had a full-time job, it was like any spare second, I would just be like, open my computer and try to write something. Now that I have a little more leadway sometimes, like I will drift a little bit.

I'll be like, yeah, you know what? I will make myself some scramble eggs this morning before I start. But, uh, yeah, that, that's life now.

Dylan Redekop: Well, you mentioned the. When you had a job, so 'cause you were for a period of time running mostly metrics and had full-time job as a CFO, uh, at what point were you like, okay, let's do this content thing full-time?

CJ Gustafson: So, um, I dunno if I should say this, uh, I don't work there anymore. Um, during, during the last year that I had a [00:38:00] CFO job I was making. A lot more money doing my newsletter and podcasts than I was full time being a CFO. But like what was important to me is that I had the credibility of being A CFO and I proved that like I wasn't like some Dante who's just like acting like I knew something, right?

And so I really wanted to be able to say that I was A CFO. I raised money. And I sold a company, 'cause a lot of people have raised money. There are not a lot of people who have sold the company. It's like maybe 10% or less of that. And so we finally sold the company in January and that was a great outcome for all our investors.

It was nice for me, like everybody likes getting money, but like for me it was like. Just prove to your readers and yourself that like, you know your shit and that you're a credible person and like, have had success before you did this. And so that was really important to me. And so then I made the jump after, like making sure they had everything I needed.

But like I, I was pretty clear that I was firing myself once it was over. Nice. Are

Chenell Basilio: you finding that like having more time throughout the day is like hurting your productivity or are [00:39:00] you actually just getting more stuff done?

CJ Gustafson: I think it's both. People are like, oh. It must be nice to not have a boss. It must be nice to run your own company.

You can do whatever you want any hour. And it's like, no, no, no, no boss could ever be as hard on me as I am on me. Like no one says meaner things to CJ than CJ says to himself about like getting stuff done. So from that perspective, I think I just feel like I'm always on the clock. I am definitely at my computer a lot less though.

I think I'm only at my computer typing or doing some sort of podcast thing, max five hours a day, which is cool because like I can go and. Driving my daughter to, we've been doing karate, which is hilarious and it's fun because like I love that stuff. Um, I can go do that some days, but I'm thinking about what I'm writing about next.

During the car ride, I am thinking about what ad read I need to get from sponsors. So it's kind of like if you work for yourself, you never work a day, but you never get a day off either.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I relate to that. Even when you're off, you're still thinking about everything.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, and that's the part that I've had to try to turn off more.

I've also tried to like instill a couple habits where [00:40:00] like I try most days to like leave my phone upstairs once I'm like going down for dinner or something. But like if you don't have a commute either, it's kinda like how do you separate the work life from the home life? I'm interested to see we're going on vacation next week, how much I can truly like stop and, and unplug for a while.

Nice.

Chenell Basilio: Well, good luck. I hope that works out for you. Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: I've got one more question because CG, you write about. A lot about metrics. What is, what are the main metrics you look for when it comes to your newsletter and like signs that things are going right or wrong or, um, is there, like, is there one kind of crown jewel of a metric that you, that you kind of value above all else?

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, it's an, it's not even really a metric. It's, well, I guess it is, it's how many people stopped and wrote me a reply? Good, bad, or indifferent? If you wrote me an email back to my email, that means like I hit a chord to me. Like if I. Write something and it gets like 58 likes or something on substack.

That's, but like nobody says anything and nobody comments like that. That's so empty to me. 'cause once again, like I was obsessed with the likes for [00:41:00] a while. 'cause I was like, oh, that's the number of people who are very quickly actively engaging with it. And then I discovered less than 1% of the people had the app or like you had to be logged in in order to like it.

So it was like, okay. That's more just in my end substack algorithm versus reaching my core audience when they need it. It's when somebody writes back to me and says like, dude, I was just talking about my, to my boss about this the other day, or This helped me look really smart in front of someone. Or like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever written.

Brad, like, I can't believe you think that. Like that's when I know, that's when I know that it hit. That's awesome.

Dylan Redekop: We've, we've had that response before, right? Chenell, I think that's one of your, even one of your favorite metrics too.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, that's my favorite one is just like, how many replies are you getting?

'cause it's just like, it is the crown jewel. Like if people are replying to your email. You definitely made them think. You made them learn something and they're just like really excited to keep reading. So

Dylan Redekop: Totally. You spark some emotion and it's not just apathetic readers, which is very, very important.

Totally.

CJ Gustafson: And people are busy, like think how, how many emails do you reply to [00:42:00] that? Like weren't specifically like just for you? Like it has to be. Great. If you're gonna take time outta your day and say something, it's

Chenell Basilio: not very often.

Dylan Redekop: No. I think we should all reply to more newsletters. Yeah. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: I'm curious.

Okay, so on the topic of reply, so I love the concept of insanely valuable content, obviously based on like your personality being injected into your content and all of that. I'm curious how you think about making your content more valuable for your readers. Like what? What is the bar that you have for yourself for any specific piece of content?

CJ Gustafson: I think the bar is, if I can. Write something and I'm like, you're gonna understand this. Like, it's like the, if you know, then you know, like certain things, like, I'll give you an example. Like for people who plan fp and a budgets, there's like a joke that like 80% of any learning and development budget at any company goes like completely unused.

So that's like your buffer. And so like if you're writing something and like you find a. Put an if you know, then you know in there and they're like, oh yes. Shit. I, I didn't think of that. Like, that's totally true. That's like, to me, something [00:43:00] that's valuable because it's on the job stuff that, like, if you didn't work in that position, you would never know that that's like an earned secret.

So when I read through something, I, I try to also think about it, like which of my. Three audience types is this four, and I recently discovered there's a four, which I can hit on, but like is this for the person who's the aspiring CFO, who's truly just trying to get better at their job today? And then they also want to signal to their boss and forward it to them.

Like, look how smart I am. I was reading this and found something out. Is it for the CFO's in a seat who forwards it to their team and. Hey, we should add this to the board deck next time. Or is it for the investor who's trying to add value and forwards it to their CFO and says like, Hey, have you ever thought about it this way?

Blah, blah, blah, blah. You should read this. And then the fourth person that I found is there a lot of CEOs. I found that my audience, I just did a poll, is 15% CEOs, which I didn't know, and that's because they're trying to get smarter. On their business and, and figure out which metrics to talk about. But like, I, I always try to think like, hopefully this is useful to everybody, but [00:44:00] like ideally there's one person in here who gets that like, oh shit, like that is what I needed today in order to do my job better.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. It's like Akash Gupta always talks about the. Optimizing for the internal share. And it sounds like that's exactly what you're kind of hitting on with your different segments of your audience. Like they're all gonna share it with someone. It's like, which person am I targeting? Exactly. Think that's interesting.

CJ Gustafson: Make it easy for them to share and make it easy for them to look smart by sharing it. Because people like to signal that too. Like because people used to always forward me like jamming balls, newsletter clouded judgment with like market multiples. I was like, I can tell you're interested in the multiples.

We also just wanna show me that like, you're reading this, not academic, but like super smart economic piece about something too. I was like, what if I could do that? What if I could be the person that they forward because they wanna look good? Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: It's kinda like virtue signaling, but it's like, it's like professional signaling.

It totally is. Yeah. Yeah. PEA talking, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I guess so.

Chenell Basilio: Amazing. I don't know if Dylan has any more questions. I have one more question, um, that I'm just curious. I wanna get you to explain more about, um, you [00:45:00] posted something recently about niches are larger than you think. Niches, niches, whatever.

And you were kind of just giving a, an update of how your podcast was doing and how it was doing better than you had hoped. Uh, and you felt like you hit this inflection point, but you kind of went on to say that like in the beginning you probably thought you were just writing for CFOs and now you, like you were just alluding to, you have these.

Different buckets of people on there. I mean, I googled how many CFOs are there in the US and there's like 130,000 or something. Somebody might look at your newsletter and be like, well he's already like halfway to, you know, hitting the full tam of that, that audience. But I think you said that was only like 30% of your audience's CFOs and the rest are like these other buckets.

Do you wanna talk more about like how you were thinking about this and like

CJ Gustafson: That actually makes me feel better that my Tim might be larger than I thought. Um. Yeah, I'm only, I'm less than a, I'm less than 20% penetrated. There. It was a quote that hit me. It was like, if you speak loud enough to your core, everyone else.

We'll listen, and everybody like wants to be a part of a club. Everybody wants [00:46:00] to be in the know. And if you're talking about something that is like really engaging to the core people, they're like, wow, I want to have that energy too. I wanna learn about that and feel smart. Then I think other people get pulled into the fold at the end of the day, like I'm talking about running a better business.

Yes, it's written primarily from the perspective of A CFO, but a lot of people out there, regardless of their role, want to be successful. And like making their company grow, making their company profitable, like helping their employees buy houses because like things went well or educating people on like stock options.

So I think like you focus on this one niche and then they share it with other people who are interested and like the most amazing thing about the podcast is like, it went from like 5,000 listings a month to then I was stuck at 10,000 for a while. Then I was stuck at 20,000 for a while, and then it just.

Doubled to 40 and then it doubled to then, then it went to like 50. It's at like 55,000 a month now, which like that is not Joe Rogan. But like if somebody told me [00:47:00] two years ago that like a stadium size of people would listen to me talk about metrics and stuff, I'd be like, you're bullshit. Like there, there's not enough people who are possibly interested in that, but what you find are like, they're.

At the end of the day, people, people are eager to learn and, and get better at things. What

Dylan Redekop: do you attribute that

CJ Gustafson: growth to? Consistency. I think leveling up like, um, and getting better and better guests and climbing that ladder helps. And like, I haven't paid for any of the growth. It's all been the biggest growth hack for a podcast is getting a guest to share it after because they likely have people who.

Are like them and their network, who would be interested in it. So for the CFOs that I interview, they'll have hundreds of CFOs their acquaintances with are in their network, and if they share it, it helps. But I think the consistency over time. I have done a couple giveaways. I don't think they've really worked, but it's been fun.

Just like, Hey, share this with the Slack group. I'll give you a Yeti mug or a hat. And for me that's more just fun. 'cause I know that if you're doing that, you actually like, really, really like my stuff. And I'm like, I want to give you something [00:48:00] to like say thank you. Um, so, so that part's been cool.

Dylan Redekop: I feel like there's an opportunity to have like branded mostly metrics, swag.

Or run the numbers swag. Yeah,

Chenell Basilio: just like a picture with your dog on it.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I, I'm into running and so I, uh, there's a cool running hat brand called SLE in, in Canada. Yeah. And so I splurged and bought like 50, uh, run the numbers hats from them. Oh, that's sweet. That is sweet. Yeah. I'll, I'll

Dylan Redekop: send you, I'll send you each one.

Nice. That would be amazing. I would wear it running. I think Bushnell and I both run, so. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I don't usually wear hats, but I'll wear a hat. Take a picture for you. You wear

Dylan Redekop: that? Wear the hat.

CJ Gustafson: It's a nice hat. You'll wear the hat. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome. Well, cool. I guess, um, so what, what does this look like now?

Like you're starting another newsletter, you have a podcast, like what does, I don't know, the next three years look like for mostly media.

CJ Gustafson: I'm also incubating, um, like a, a data and benchmarking service in the background. 'cause I've always thought that like it can be, uh, media in the front, uh, like a product [00:49:00] in the back of some way.

And so the mullet,

Chenell Basilio: the media. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

CJ Gustafson: the mullet. Who wrote about that? Was it Mario?

Chenell Basilio: I have no idea. I know just the way you said it made, it sounded very melody.

CJ Gustafson: That's 'cause it is. It's supposed to be like that party in the front business in the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and like what I noticed working for marketplace businesses in particular as a CFO, that like once you get to a certain size.

You have the ability to build things that maybe don't have like a bunch of technical risks to them. Like I'm not trying to like create a rocket ship or anything, but I have enough people to weigh in that it creates data that's statistically significant and you can't get it unless you have 66,000 readers.

And so that's what I'm trying to lean into now. And so that's been fun. I mean like it's now not just mostly metrics, it's mostly media. And I have two newsletters, a podcast. It's kind of like. Whatever's interesting to me, I feel like is a good lens of what's interesting to my audience. And um, a lot of companies go out and they try to figure out how do we create this product?

Okay, we created, now let's go search [00:50:00] for customers. I look at it like, well, I already have the customers. Lemme just figure out what they want and I'll build them that. Mm-hmm. And so it's just like. The, the whole business equation in reverse. But at the same time, like the media is still the main product.

None of that's possible without the other stuff. So continuing to create better and better stuff. And I just upgraded the studio, which is nice. I don't look like, I don't look like a boomer on like a, an android trying to do a podcast anymore. So like, just trying to professionalize it a bit more.

Dylan Redekop: And how big is your team?

Because you've, you've talked about, uh, somebody who's managing some sales stuff for you, but like. Somebody listening here would be like, you can't possibly be doing all of this on your own. So like, do you have contractors, W2 employees, or how does, how is it all set up and how big is it

CJ Gustafson: All contractors today, I'm the only one that does the content, so I do all the content.

I don't have any writers or anything like that. Producer sales. Accounting help and a va. That's manageable. Yeah. Really good.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah,

CJ Gustafson: and my wife is awesome because she comes from a marketing background and she helps me with event stuff, so she'll help me get people to the events, book the venues and stuff.

[00:51:00] So that aspect, yeah, we didn't

Chenell Basilio: even talk about that. You're doing all these dinners now with CFOs? Yeah, we've done like

CJ Gustafson: 10 or 12 of 'em, which has been nice. Crazy.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome.

CJ Gustafson: Are those invite only? Yes. So, um, I get like 20 to 30 CFOs in a room, and then we sell four of the seats to sponsors to be there as well.

So it's cool to meet people that read it. They get a free gourmet, five star chef cooking for them. Yeah, which is cool. And then, uh, like, I'm not like trying to sell them anything either, so it's just like a cool hang. Um, and then the sponsors who were there. They're all sponsors. Like what I try to do with that because like it's extremely valuable to get somebody in person, you have to sponsor either the newsletter or the podcast in order to get access to the events within, we call it the ecosystem.

And so that's worked really well too, where it's like you also get these in-person touch points with people. It's really hard to get a CFO to go to something anyway, so like they're, they're totally excited for that.

Chenell Basilio: And they get to talk about numbers and nerdy stuff, so I'm sure they're, that's fun.

CJ Gustafson: [00:52:00] What's hilarious is like. We don't talk too much about business. It's just, um, it's just people being people like, uh, and that's, I think, like, honestly that's also what the sponsors understand about coming. Like, CFOs just like want someone they can trust who's gonna be there when they call. And like, there's a lot of tech out there, there are a lot of bankers out there that's like there.

Do you build a relationship with somebody? Like, you're a good hangover dinner. Like they're gonna talk to you after that. Um, mm-hmm. So it's, it's been fun. That's awesome. That's smart. I like that.

Chenell Basilio: Well, well I think we're coming up here on the hour, so I just wanna be mindful of that. But I really appreciate you coming on this, this show to cj.

This is awesome. It's been a long time coming. I know, like I said, but, um, I feel like I made it

CJ Gustafson: when you did the growth in reverse write up on me. I was like, I'm, I made it. This is, I peaked. I'm there. I know. I remember along the way you

Chenell Basilio: kept tagging me. You're like, Chenell, I hit 30,000. Save this. And then you're like, I don't have to write

CJ Gustafson: about anyone who's, uh, not.

At 50 yet, I'm like, I'm out like 60 now. And you gotta do it. Like I, [00:53:00] I held out this long. Like

Chenell Basilio: That's great. I love it. That is awesome. Well, thanks for coming on. If people wanna go check out your stuff, obviously mostly metrics.com, um, and then you're just CJ Gustafson everywhere, right? Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: It's me.

Chenell Basilio: Nice.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I think people should sign up for your newsletter just to, for the onboarding experience alone. So like totally see what you c doing. That one was

Chenell Basilio: from the paid newsletter was, so you gotta sign up for the paid side of things. Oh, that was, dang. Well,

Dylan Redekop: hey there, we're gonna get you some more paid subscribers, cj, so go sign up for his paid newsletter.

There's some Easter eggs in that paid sign up. Yeah, there you go. Love it. Awesome.

Chenell Basilio: Well thanks for coming on cj.

CJ Gustafson: When you did the growth in reverse, write up on me, I was like, I made it. I peaked. You either die a newsletter or live long enough to become a podcast, which I'm sure you can appreciate. If somebody told me two years ago that like a stadium size of people would listen to me talk about metrics and stuff, I'd be like, bullshit people.[00:54:00]

Are always looking for great content, and if you can make someone's life easier, they will give you the platform to do so and they may even pay you.

Chenell Basilio: Cj, this has been a long time coming. I know we met at the newsletter conference a couple years ago, um, and I've been following your, your newsletter for a while now. Wrote a deep dive on you. Earlier this year and just really enjoyed the whole process of getting to learn more about your business, your newsletter, everything.

So excited to have you on the show. Thanks for coming.

CJ Gustafson: This is a total trip because I've been reading growth in reverse like for years and years because like I'm, I'm like obsessive compulsive with just like trying to find any edge and then. I've been listening to the podcast that you and Dylan have been doing for a while.

So what do they say on sports radio? They're like, first time, long time. Yeah. Calling it, yeah. Long time listener. First time caller. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome. Do you wanna give us like the quick, I don't know, 32nd backstory of like what you write about how you got into this, that kind of thing?[00:55:00]

CJ Gustafson: Yeah. So. Didn't know this could be a career, but here we are. Um, I'm CJ and I'm a tech CFO by trade. So I got my start coming outta college doing consulting for PWC. I kind of felt like a financial tourist there where I was popping in and out. And then I got, um, the opportunity to work at a private equity company.

Where like I was responsible for valuing like how much these things are worth. And that was like a true grind, like hour wise and just learning like the hard skills that were required to, to do the math. And I think in both of those I was probably like a a B minus, if I'm being honest. Like it looked cool on LinkedIn, but like I don't think I was totally that great at them.

And I could have went to business school, but I was like, I kind of wanna make money. So I started working at Tech Startup. And it's funny 'cause like nobody in college tells you that that's even like a viable career. To be the one who like budgets. I thought like to work in tech I had to either code, which I don't know how to do or sell, which I'm terrified of doing.

And like I found my product market fit with [00:56:00] helping to like allocate the resources of like, this is how much we need to sell, this is how many people we can hire. And so like I got my come up doing what they call financial planning and analysis and that eventually led to me becoming a CFO and. This whole time I was terrified of not remembering like the playbook that I was learning, or I call it earning because like you're, you're on the ground, you're getting exposed to these like secrets of running a company and, and making it work.

So I started a newsletter called Mostly Metrics, and it had many iterations, some of which are kind of embarrassing to look back on, but that eventually led to me having a pretty sizable following on Substack where I write for. Mainly CFOs, aspiring CFOs, and I kind of look at it like anyone who's obsessed with business and how to make your operations more, more profitable.

And then you either die a newsletter or live long enough to become a podcast, which I'm sure you can appreciate. And that led to me starting the Run the Numbers podcast where uh, it's kinda like mostly metrics, [00:57:00] but an audio form. And I interview a lot of world class CFOs and investors.

Chenell Basilio: And for people who are thinking like, oh man, finance, like CFO, like, that's not my wheelhouse.

CJ's content is so good. Like the dad jokes alone would keep me reading, like, I don't understand anything you write about. But then I'm like, dog picks and dad jokes and memes, like, I'm here for it. So I really love the, uh, the comedy you add into there.

CJ Gustafson: Say you, uh, you come for the gifts and then you stay for like the CAC payback calculations.

Dylan Redekop: That's

CJ Gustafson: what I always stick ground

Dylan Redekop: for.

Chenell Basilio: That's amazing.

Dylan Redekop: I think my first introduction to your newsletter was Chenell when she was kind of prepping for her deep dive. She shared like your welcome email, I believe it was, and you had like, you know, the Miller Time beer flying across and it was just like, okay, this vibe, this is a vibe I can.

I can dig, like this is, this is fun. A lot of fun. Different than what I would expect from a newsletter, from A CFO for sure. So like, where did that all come from? Like that whole vibe and ethos and like, you know, Miller [00:58:00] time, um, angle, I guess. So first of all, I love Miller Light.

CJ Gustafson: I don't know why they haven't sponsored my podcast yet.

I was, I was obsessed with Bill Simmons. Growing up, I still am. Uh, back when he was writing Grantland. And so for those who don't know, it's kind of like the combination of sports and pop culture. And I always thought like, oh, it'd be so cool if somebody could do something similar, but for business and to have more personality injected into it.

And what resonated with me is he made it cool to be like a fan of what you were writing about, like a lot of the sports writers back then. They covered it from like this like really grumpy angle of like, oh, I can't like, enjoy what I'm doing. I'm like, dude, you have the best job in the world. Why? Why wouldn't you enjoy that?

And so I kind of wanted to take that to finance and I slowly discovered that like there's a lot of. There's a lot of really shitty business content online that like was written by AI before AI even existed. Mm-hmm. Where it's basically just like this DRL of just like, I don't know, it's, it's very sterile.[00:59:00]

It's not, it's not much of an on-ramp to make somebody want to continue reading. And a lot of times they make it sound more complicated than it actually is. And that's like a flaw with the finance world where people have like this scarcity complex of like, oh, there's not enough to go around, so I'm gonna make it sound really complicated.

So other people can't. Can't understand. Mm-hmm. And what I found is like, I don't know, I, I never really totally, uh, fit the stereotype, I think for A CFO who wears like a belt and suspenders to work. And then I just kept leaning into, I wouldn't call it being unhinged, but like just my own personality quirks and I think.

People started to say, oh, it's kind of like I'm almost hanging out with CJ whenever I read the newsletter and like I see him as a real person and he's not saying that he knows everything. And so over time like that just, it was odd that people were getting back to me more about like me being a person than what I was talking about.

And I'm like, you know what? I'm just gonna, I think like Sam Par has the phrase like, let your freak flag fly. And it's not like I was trying to be weird or anything. I'm just like, oh, just be willing to [01:00:00] talk about. Things that are interesting to you alongside things that you study pretty seriously and, and want to get right.

And like you, you take that part seriously, but like there's no reason to not have fun with it and inject some like human into it.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I think a lot of people will stray away from that and just try and go the super serious route. 'cause they're scared to like let their weirdness show, if you will. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, so I really appreciate that in your writing.

Dylan Redekop: I think it's like a USP that more and more people are gonna have to kinda adopt. Just like so much out there is Googleable or AI able, that content is kinda like this commodity. And so when you do stuff like, you know, have your awesome personality vibe, freak flag in your newsletter, um, where you're like trying to get Miller to sponsor your newsletter by throwing memes and gif in it, like that's cool and that's fun and that's interesting.

And then you can back it up with like. Actual information that people really want, but they're gonna, they're gonna stay. I think they'll, in some ways, they'll come for that information, but they'll stay for your personality to some degree [01:01:00] and for, for your humor and, and all that sort of thing.

CJ Gustafson: And I look at it like a competitive moat in a lot of ways.

Yeah. Like you may have the recipe, but you don't have the ingredients to copy it. Like, I don't have this. This person is like your competitor or something. It's like, well, they app, they can't be me. And I'm not saying like I'm the best at anything. I'm just very different in the way that I approach it. And I think that's like a durable mode over time.

Whereas if I was just reciting facts like anyone could do that, but it's like, can, can you make it interesting? Do have you actually seen every episode of The Wire in Breaking Bad and know how to like link that back to like telling a story about m and a. Like, I, I think that's what makes people also remember, I don't know, I think it's that Maya Angelo quote that people won't remember what you said, but they'll remember how they made you feel.

Like, I, I hope that people feel a different way when they read my stuff.

Chenell Basilio: I love that. Totally. Yeah. I definitely think people feel a different way 'cause. You could just look at some of the comments and it's like, look at this guy's post. Like they're just, they love your personality being injected into it.

[01:02:00] And I think it's just like a huge, they also love my dog mug that you have

CJ Gustafson: my dog. So there's been like this ongoing joke and it got kind of outta hand. So just like for context, uh, when I was trying to get it up and running, I said, Hey, for everyone, thousand new subscribers, I'll buy my dog Walter and ice cream.

And, um, then like growth started to take off and I was buying him an ice cream like every other week. And, but now I like, we have to buy like hoodie cups and he'll stand in front of the, the freezer every night and scratch the floor until we give him one. So it's actually evolved until he gets an ice cream every single night, which like wow is probably not great for his.

But I dunno.

Chenell Basilio: That's incredible. You even built like a website called like mostly ice cream.com for him, which doesn't work anymore from what I can see, but that was hilarious. Yeah, I love their domain

CJ Gustafson: laps. I need to get it again, so nobody take it. But my friend Nicholas, who uh, runs mega Hit Design that for me as a joke.

So Good. That's awesome.

Dylan Redekop: That's awesome. Well, why don't we get into some numbers, because I think we've been [01:03:00] talking about like your vibe and everything, which we love. But let's talk about like some, some numbers. So where's the newsletter at in terms of subscribers and if you're willing to share a general number of, 'cause you've got a paid version as well.

Um, kinda a general idea of paid subscribers too. Um, I'm curious to learn about that.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, I'm at 66,000 free today. And then as Substack shows, I have over a thousand paid. Like my model is actually almost 90% driven by ad revenue, which I think is different than a lot of people on Substack. And that that also makes me wonder in the back of my head, like if Substack is the right place for me, long term, now that I'm building not just a newsletter, but a whole media company with a podcast, and I launch a second newsletter as well, but I'm in a spot where my ICP, my ideal customer profile CFOs, they have a lot of power in terms of.

What gets purchased. So not only do they get paid pretty well, but like they decide for the whole company what you're gonna buy. And so a lot of my sponsors are [01:04:00] selling things that are hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so if they just get one, one purchase from that, it makes sense. And so part of it's like just the structural elements of like who reads it, what they buy, what they're interested in.

But um, I kind of look at like the subscription. As like, it's very important. I mean, that's how, how I, how I pay the bills and stuff. But it's, uh, it's definitely secondary to the advertising revenue.

Chenell Basilio: That's so interesting. So with sponsorships, I know you have a couple of different ways you work with companies, but what is like, I don't know, I, I just love the way you're working with sponsors.

I can see you on Twitter, you're commenting on their posts, you're retweeting things, and I'm sure that's not like included necessarily in the contract. No. Maybe it is. I don't knows, but I just, it's not, I'm curious how you think about like. Brand partnerships and that kind of thing?

CJ Gustafson: Well, I think about it as a long-term relationship where like I, I understand first of all the buying habits of CFOs.

Like they have to trust you over time. And so like I want to trust my part, my brand partners who sponsor me and they. It's, it's like this mutual understanding [01:05:00] that like it's a long-term game that you wanna play with long-term people. It started at first that I had a full-time job, so I didn't have time to go out and sell for every newsletter.

So I just said, you know what? You have to buy on a quarterly basis. And that was more like I didn't have Matthew who, who runs my sales, he's amazing and handles all our partnerships. I didn't have him yet. And I was still a full-time CFO, so I'm like, in order for this to work and me not lose sight of my day job, like you gotta sign up for a quarterly package.

And that ended up working amazing for the sponsors because you gotta think like you're not in the market to buy an ERP every month. You're not gonna switch up your billing system or your payments processor. So what ended up happening is like after like two months, they would start to see a bunch of deals fall.

'cause we had built this trust with the customer and I think you need to hit a CFO, not. Three times, not five times, not seven times, probably 13 times. They have to hear from you. Mm-hmm. And I call it like the, the, the ground game and the air game where like ground games and newsletter, podcast is the air game.

You gotta surround them in a way where you build that trust over [01:06:00] time just to be part of the consideration set when it is time to purchase. So it's kind of like you win the trust just to be known to them and then can you win the sale after that? And so I've designed everything quarterly minimums that you have to sign up for.

But what ends up happening is like, um, I haven't announced it yet, but I do have a big sponsor. We signed up for all of 2026 already. So we're halfway through 2025. Congrats. Yeah. And like it's a bigger deal than I ever thought would be possible. So like I'm very thankful for that, but it's because they saw the results of sticking with me over time.

Mm-hmm.

Dylan Redekop: And like

CJ Gustafson: having enough inertia to like spread your surface area for good things to happen that aligns with the sales cycle of, of who you, who you're going after.

Dylan Redekop: Whoa. Wow. That's crazy. So you probably have some follow up questions, Chenell, um, but I, I'm really curious, like you publish, uh, is it once a week?

So I publish three times a week. Two are free, uh, and one is paid. So in, in terms of the two free newsletters, are those always sponsored with your quarterly sponsor? Correct. Yeah. Okay. So they're really [01:07:00] different. So I have two quarterly sponsors per quarter then Okay. Through that. Got it. Okay. So it might be like one weekly edition basically.

They'll, they'll get a sponsorship Yeah. Per, per quarter. Okay. So cool. So, and so you've got quarter, oh, go ahead. Oh, no, no. I was just

CJ Gustafson: gonna say, so I come from the world of, um. Like accounting and finance, where you think of everything on a quarterly basis anyway. Yeah. So in my mind, like everything's on a 13 week cycle, doesn't matter.

And so like you're signing up for 13 cents with that. Or if you sign up for the, um, podcast, which we can talk about later, you're signing up for 24 episodes. 'cause we do four per month. But like, the way that my mind works is like, what, how many, how many activations do you get in a quarterly cycle? And so for the newsletter.

There are two sponsors who each get 13 cents or 26. 'cause I'm sending 26 times per quarter. Can't believe I write that money. That's crazy.

Dylan Redekop: So in terms of the ads, I think this is a really good reminder for a lot of people listening who are selling like one-off newsletter ads. Um, guilty. Like I've definitely done that.

And shocker, they [01:08:00] don't, you know, necessarily drive the results that the advertisers is hoping for. So I think it's a really good reminder. I dunno about for you Chenell, but for me, like you need to like bundle these things up to like a minimum probably of like a month, at least a monthly package if you're doing like a weekly send, for example.

Um, and a quarterly would be, would be even better. And we had Lex Roman who came on our, uh, not our podcast, but came into our community a few months ago and she just sells. Six months packages because she's like, I just want, I just wanna promote one person for six months and just like get them as much revenue and results as possible.

Chenell Basilio: Do you ever consider, like, or do you, you probably consider this obviously, but incorporating like newsletter and podcasts into one package or do you keep them completely separate?

CJ Gustafson: Yeah. Uh, more than half the partners will double up and do both for a quarter.

Chenell Basilio: And so you just discount it based on, you know, if they're incorporating newsletter, podcasts.

CJ Gustafson: I never discount anything. So it's actually like a, a principle that we go by. Nice. Um, we know the value of the audience, so we never discount anything. Wow.

Chenell Basilio: That's pretty rare. I don't think I've heard that from many creators. [01:09:00]

CJ Gustafson: I'm also a CFO, so I understand that it's a slippery slope and people expect upon renewal for that discount to continue.

So then you end up with an annuity stream. If you have a continuous partner that's at a a smaller rate. What's better to do actually, and this is a tip for creators, is to give away like one send for free if you have to do it, rather than give a discount. 'cause one send that goes away after, and then you have a larger base to renew upon.

But like discounts like. It all. It's also like a branding thing. Like I actually price all of my stuff. I want 50% of the the companies to say no just because it's too expensive. Right? Yeah. And then if they ask for a discount, then I know that it's probably not the right relationship because I also know back of the envelope what their lifetime value to customer acquisition cost is and how to get there.

So I think like you have to study who you're working with and what their average transaction size is, and then how long a customer. Sticks around, but like, my advice would be to like, just stick to a strategy because if you give that inch, then you [01:10:00] end up with a basket of sponsors and, and they all talk too.

Like, they'll find out like, oh, you gave him a $5,000. Like, I want that too. Like I just don't even wanna play that game. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: It's like if you give a mouse of cookie kind of situation. Yeah,

CJ Gustafson: totally. You said a precedent that you don't want. Totally. That like, uh, Scott Galloway said something that has always stuck with me.

He said, I have two prices. Really fucking expensive or free. And I like to be generous when it comes to the free stuff though. Like I, there's like, Bre Brex could text me right now and be like, dude, we just had like this product launch and like we're, we're trying to talk about it. I'll be like, no problem.

I will talk about that today for you. Like, 'cause I appreciate them as a partner long term or like, I'll jump into comments and just. Write funny stuff if their CFO posts something for, for any of the companies that work with me, or I'll try to share 'em on, on podcasts. So I think you have to be generous from that perspective and be willing to be like a good partner who will go the extra mile.

But I don't think that means you have to compromise on price necessarily.

Chenell Basilio: On the topic of sponsors and brand deals, uh, you implemented [01:11:00] what I ended up calling, like the triple stack approach where you were working with. Brand partner sponsors to essentially run paid guest posts. I i there, it's hard to like give a better name than that.

It could be considered like content licensing as well. But, uh, I really, really appreciate this approach. So you're essentially like getting paid by brands to republish your content that you've already written and then they link back to your stuff too. It's just like this huge, amazing flywheel that I can't stop talking about.

I think I've sh, I think I've talked about this in the last two. Talks I've given on stage and on this podcast, like every episode, because I'm just like, CJ's brilliant. I just can't get over it. Do you wanna explain? I think you're a brilliant one because

CJ Gustafson: I had no idea what I was doing. I was making it up.

I was like, I think this is a good idea, but like, I didn't, I couldn't like summarize what the strategy was, but like when you wrote it up, I was like. I did do that. Wow. That's cool. That's incredible.

Dylan Redekop: Well, let's talk through it. For people who don't know, like ex, maybe explain it or sorry, Chenell you were gonna ask, ask something.

Chenell Basilio: No, no, no. That's exactly what I was gonna say. Okay.

Dylan Redekop: Well [01:12:00]

CJ Gustafson: I think like what I noticed is a lot of the people who are. Creating the blog content for, it could be like a credit card company, it could be an FPA software, an ERP. There's somebody who has like a day job, and this is usually just like one component of it.

And they're always looking to fill those spots with like good content. And something I also notice is a lot of people in those roles, they probably don't come from that background, and they're not industry practitioners like they weren't A CFO before. And so what I leaned into was providing content that they could use on their site.

And at first it was free. There was one company that, like, I was just trying to grow the newsletter, I think it was at like 3000 subscribers. And I was like, can I do a guest post for you? And they're like, yeah. I was like, are you really gonna, you're really gonna let me just be on your website? And so I did a guest post, and then I think I just got a little bit more ballsy where I was like.

Uh, I'll, I'll do guest posts for you, but you gotta pay me this amount. It'll be six posts, and by the way, I'm going to, I'm gonna link back to your site and I'll repost it on my site too. So then we'll have these network [01:13:00] effects, which also filled a spot for me that I had to sell, like fill anyway for that week.

And so I think the lesson there is like. People are always looking for great content and if you can make someone's life easier, they will give you the platform to do so and they may even pay you.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I love that. And you run a paid newsletter, so these people, you're getting paid by the brand. These people can come back to your site and then end up paying you again 'cause they're gonna sign up as a paid newsletter subscriber.

I just, I love it. It's so good. Um, are you still doing a lot of those?

CJ Gustafson: Mm. I haven't been lately just because I got to a point where the, the packages for the newsletter were were pretty substantial, and so I didn't want to cannibalize it with one-offs, but it was a great way to get the flywheel going.

That said, what I'm thinking about doing in the future is including. Interviews with CEOs of companies who sponsor my reports and saying, you can use our interview. I'll do a writeup on, uh, for you to use for your blog, and you can repurpose it there. So like, I'm still trying to find ways to [01:14:00] get on people's website because it also gave me a ton of SEO cred that like, oh, you're searching for ERPs and there are four companies in the category that I'll link back.

Like, okay, that's a pretty good sign. Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm trying to thread the needle here without, um. Without cannibalizing the main thing at this point.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, that makes sense. As far as growth goes, other than like getting in front of other software companies and that kind of thing, do you wanna talk through like maybe how you got your first 1000 subscribers, like that strategy you did on Twitter?

CJ Gustafson: This was back when it still worked. So I made a, a list of 20 terms that were relevant to me. Like stuff that, like if I saw it in my feed, it'd be like, oh, that, that like a stock based comp or like customer acquisition costs or net dollar people probably rolling their eyes. But like the lesson is to find out which terms, and I say terms, but it's really like what virtual real estate you wanna own.

That's extremely specific. And so I made a list of 20 terms and every night when me and my wife would watch tv, she would have on like. Below deck or Real Housewives or something. So she'd be happy. But like [01:15:00] I'd be on my phone and I'd be searching for those terms. And then whenever somebody said something about it, I would try to write something insightful and be like, oh, and by the way, if you, if you really want to nerd out, you should check out this post.

And so I had corresponding posts to all 20 of those terms that allowed me to link back. So essentially, like even today. There for certain terms, like if you search for like net dollar retention is a pretty good chance that will still come up. 'cause like it got a lot of likes after that. But like, my whole thing was like, I want people to feel like I'm everywhere If they're searching for a certain topic and like, I actually wasn't, I was only just on these extremely niche things, but like I was, I, I wanted them to find like I would be at the end of every single road for those terms no matter what.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I love that. Do you think that could still work on something like Substack or Reds or something?

CJ Gustafson: I don't know. I think, I think it can still work on Reddit if you don't get kicked outta the groups that's being kicked outta most of them for posting there. Um, but I think like you, you have to first find out where the [01:16:00] people who are interested in your stuff goes.

So like notes like I enjoy sometimes, but then I realize when I look like less than 0.5 point, like less than 1% of my audience actually uses the Substack app. So there aren't many CFOs who are just on their couch looking at notes that night, so, right. That hasn't been too helpful for me. It's, it's just people who write on Substack talking about how much they love substack.

Chenell Basilio: That's interesting. I didn't realize you could see that in the back end of your stats of like how many are using the app. That makes sense. Yeah.

CJ Gustafson: Every time I send out an email, it tells me where they came from and the people who are reading on the Substack app, it's always less than 1%.

Dylan Redekop: Oh, okay. So Chenell you'd have to actually send a newsletter from Yeah.

Substack to figure that out. Totally. So that's Twitter and, and you've been kicked outta Reddit. What about LinkedIn? 'cause I noticed you've got a decent following there as well, like over 17,000 followers on LinkedIn. What's been kind of your, I don't know, content strategy for lack of a. Better term there.

People

CJ Gustafson: love, um, charts with logos on them. I'll [01:17:00] leave it at that. Uh, that's something I learned like in the private equity world, that people love a good market map, so that helps. Um, but honestly, like Brian Belfor had a great post about this recently, like LinkedIn is also dried up to a certain extent, where like they let all the creators in to make it like a spot that people would go for entertainment.

And less so just like a static yellow pages or database. And then they kind of shut the door on them, where like posts don't do as well anymore. So I still post there a lot. I think it's just two more concentrated audience, but like I think leading with visuals. Helps. Um, and anything that is either around m and a economic activity or compensation tends to do well.

And that's usually, I think it's probably because people are a, a bit inherently selfish, so they always want to know like, what's in it for me? So I think you get a, whenever you post on LinkedIn, you have to think like the person reading it is probably reading it. Not for their employer, but for themselves.

So what's in it for that person to either make them better [01:18:00] at their jobs so they can make more money or to present something that's like an opportunity for them to, to upskill.

Chenell Basilio: So are you still super focused on growth at this point? Like you're at 66,000, is there like. A new strategy you're, you're working through, aside from just posting on LinkedIn and I think reposting to Twitter, I don't know.

Is there like a new strategy you're doing? Are you more focused on just like monetization, like continuing to make your readers happy? I think I'm

CJ Gustafson: trying to find how to go deeper with certain readers because like. There. There's someone out there who's crazy enough to pay me, not $15 a month, but $30 a month.

It's like, how do you find them and then what do you offer them? So what I've been trying to lean into is within the paid offering, do more reports that are like more first party data. Because what I realized is now that I have a large enough following of like people who actually have their hands on data, like it's one thing to have like a hundred thousand marketers who read your newsletter, they probably don't have access to the financial data of the company.

The people that read my newsletter have access to benchmarking results that I can use [01:19:00] to create reports. So it's like the power of crowds. And so I've been leaning into that, but I mean, like, I, I always want to see it grow. I think I've also shifted a lot, not shifted, but like I was a full-time CFO before and now that I'm making content, I think like the other half of like, my brain is focused on the podcast and trying to grow that.

So I've been trying to grow the podcast, uh, probably more than the newsletter.

Dylan Redekop: Let's talk about the podcast. Sure. What's it called? Uh, when did you start it? Like at what point in like this content journey did you decide, Hey, I think a podcast is a great idea. Let's, uh, let's run with that.

CJ Gustafson: I've been doing the podcast for two years now.

It's hilarious because if you talk to anyone in my family, they're like, we can't get a word outta you at. At the dinner table and now you make a living doing a podcast. I'm like, well, it's kind of different talking about stuff that like, I feel like I'm, I hope I'm uniquely qualified to speak to, so it's kinda like in my domain.

But yeah, it, it was something that I kind of stumbled into and was very nervous about doing it first, because I think with a newsletter you can hit send and it's just like you're writing, but like now it has your face and [01:20:00] voice attached to it. It's a different relationship I think you have. At the same time, I think it's actually a more valuable relationship because the people spend an hour with you and get to know you.

So even though it's not as attributable probably to advertisers, it's like people are dedicating a full hour to hang out, read rather than five to 10 minutes for reading a newsletter. But I started at two years ago and now I'm 210 episodes in. If you want, I can talk about the process of like getting people to come on if, if that's helpful.

Let's hear it. So when nobody tells you about an interview podcast. As the first 50 guests, it's like pulling teeth. Like I would've had my dog on if he could talk as a guest, and that was like impossible. But luckily, like I had some great sponsors from a newsletter who referred me to people. So like Brex hooked me up with their CFO at the time.

And then I had some people who were reading a newsletter who said, oh, I'll come on and be your guest. And so what you find with a podcast is you climb this ladder of people where one person leads to another. And so the first 50 were extremely hard to get on. The next [01:21:00] 50, I actually hired somebody to help me with outbound and I would pay him based on like 200 bucks or something based on each person who would come onto the show.

And so I would say for every, like. 300 people, we outbound it like 10 would agree to come on. So that was just like a sheer numbers game of getting them to, to come. And so then probably like from one 20 to 200, almost every guest has been inbound, which is crazy. Hmm. So like it went from like this push to now a pull where I think I've had five of the last seven companies to IPO, their CFOs come on, like either before or after the IPO.

So it becomes like a, a, a media thing to do. Yeah. That amazes me because like I just think back of how recent it was of how like I couldn't get anybody on to, to come and talk, but it's like how do you get into the current of like being a spot that communication firms wanna push people to? Because like, it goes back to what I was saying about like writing guest posts.

If they have a job to do, how can you make their job easier? [01:22:00] And it has to be a great product that you're putting forward too, but like, how can you be available to solve their problem? And what I found is that CFOs are typically looked at as like back office people who like they can't get out in front of a camera.

And it's like if you can create a welcoming environment to make them look like a thought leader, you're doing the company a big favor too.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. And

CJ Gustafson: so it's kind of like a win-win for both of you. And a lot of the people who come on, they're at a point in their career I realize where like. They've done pretty well.

It's probably more about legacy for them at that point. And so can you give them a platform to share and be looked at as like, uh, someone who helped the next generation of people coming up. So I think like that subtle shift after like 50 to 100 people, like help. Help my perspective of like how, how to recruit people to come on, but also how to present it as an opportunity so you get inbound.

Chenell Basilio: Nice. Yeah. You mentioned the, uh, the IPO thing. So when I did the deep dive a couple months ago, your top post on substack were showing like complete guides, masterclasses, like these really [01:23:00] long form pieces about like one topic, but you went super deep and now I notice that you're shifting over to like these behind the IPO type pieces and those are starting to take over the top.

The top pieces on your Substack archive. So I think that's super interesting. Like, I don't know, I always talk about this 'cause my first deep dive was on Mario Gabrieli. He used to do S one, uh, report things. He would explain the S ones and it feels very similar. Yeah. So I'm wondering if you took inspiration from that and you're like, Hey, he's not doing it anymore.

Let me, uh, kind of do something adjacent.

CJ Gustafson: He was doing it. Jim and Ball was doing it. Alex Clayton was doing it, and I was obsessed with all of 'em. And I would read them, but it wasn't the way that I would write it. They actually have, uh, probably more facts and figures in there. I, I write mine in a fashion that, like, you give it to somebody who's not from a finance background, and someone actually emailed me the other day and they said, dude, this S one breakdown, I don't know if you're gonna like this or not, but like, this is kind of like TikTok for finance.

Like, I can just consume this. It's bite sized. I understand what's going on. I [01:24:00] have a couple facts to give to someone where I sound smarter. Like the gifts are really good too. So I just took it from a different angle and I was definitely inspired by them. I usually don't do anything that's current events 'cause I want it to be greenfield and you can come back to it.

But for this I was like, I think I have an opinion and I can whip this up pretty fast because it's like what I used to do like in my career. And um, those, those have easily become the most shared ones. Like yesterday, I, I googled Chime, IPO, and somehow I was like the second. Second result to come up, which like blew my mind.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, and I think in a way those are going to be evergreen, evergreen pieces because the way you wrote them and formatted 'em, you're explaining like how they got there also. So I think like they're going to last down the road of like, Hey, how do IIPO just like this company? Like, and you have kind of a roadmap from those companies.

The

CJ Gustafson: craziest part about that is I was doing the Klarna S one writeup and somebody from the information reached out and they're like, Hey, can we talk to you about a quote? I was like, dude, I wrote this like on my couch after two beers. Yeah, sure.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome.

CJ Gustafson: And now I'm friends with [01:25:00] them and we text all the time about IPOs, but it just shows like that the Internet's like the last true democracy where if you write something people like that's useful.

It doesn't matter if like you're a guy and you're addict. Real media outlets, and I say real with quotes, like the people will reach out and want to talk about it and you can make relationships.

Chenell Basilio: I think that. That's a great play. I really, that's awesome that they reach out. You never know where your next, like relationship's gonna come from online.

So cool. Yeah. Okay, so you kind of alluded to this, but I did see that you launched looking for leverage, like an a second newsletter. What is, what's going on there? I wanna hear all about that.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, so I went to this conference for CFOs and it was put on by a private equity, uh, company. And so like if people don't know, venture capital is typically earlier on in a company's lifecycle when they're growing like crazy and they're burning a bunch of cash.

Some of the people that I really enjoy reading from, like the VC background, like you could say. Kyle Poer, um, growth on Hinge. That's really great. Kyle Harrison, just all Kyle's [01:26:00] investing, I think 1 0 1 or 1 0 2, but what I noticed is like there are actually more private equity backed companies out there than venture capital backed companies, and these are companies that are usually larger.

Later stage and are focused on profits. And so I was at this conference and there were 52 CFOs in there, and they're talking about like completely different things. And I was like, there's nobody writing anything for these people, but it's such a big audience. Maybe it's not as sexy and it is in as many headlines, but like they, they consume content too.

Some of 'em actually consume mostly metrics. What if I did like a adjacent newsletter that's like somewhat similar but, but different. And so it's, it's definitely a smaller audience, but I'm trying to actually, like, my goal is to create with this one the most valuable. Audience per reader out there. So like I always thought, wouldn't it be cool if you had a newsletter and it was just 32 people to 32 NFL owners?

Like I want to create an audience where it's just executives from private equity backed companies. And I know [01:27:00] already that on the list, like the list is smaller than 10,000 today, but I have 2000 of the 9,000 PE back CFOs on there. So like, I think I'm on my way to creating a really valuable list and I, and I enjoy writing about that content too, because I feel like it's not well covered.

So it's kind of like, how can you take something that you started and then niche down even further? And, um, what's interesting about that is like, in terms of monetizing it, sponsors look at that is even more valuable on a per sponsor basis. Mm-hmm. Because you're telling them. Brought you further even down the funnel than the people you wanted to reach before.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. You've like amassed, that's their ideal target market. All like in one audience and it's like these people have money, make decisions, and can be your customer. So that's smart.

Chenell Basilio: How are you writing two newsletters?

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, actually that's a great question. Uh,

CJ Gustafson: and a podcast.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah.

CJ Gustafson: That's my competitive advantage though.

Like people, I don't know, how do people go to work and sit at a desk for 10 hours? Um, it's just what I [01:28:00] do now and it becomes just like the lens that you see the world through. So like I was writing, looking for leverage right before I jumped on this, it becomes just like a rhythm. That you get into. I do try to bank a lot of stuff where I'll write it and then I'll keep it there on the shelf for later.

I have so many mostly metrics. I probably have over 70 pieces that are 80% done. And so when I can't think of anything, I'll go back and just finish something new. But like my goal every day is to write something or podcast something before lunchtime every day, just to check that box, um, and then go on with the rest of the day.

But like, uh, something I took from Money KY is. He said, I don't take meetings before like 2:00 PM or something, so I don't take anything except for this podcast, which we're recording. I don't take anything until 1:00 PM Eastern now. I don't do any meetings at all because like nobody's gonna wanna meet, meet with me after 1:00 PM if my writing and my podcasting sucks.

That's what I realized. So like I have to, I have to take care of the main thing first.

Chenell Basilio: I

CJ Gustafson: love that. That is smart.

Chenell Basilio: Feel very honored to be in the small group [01:29:00] of people who you'll talk to before 1:00 PM

CJ Gustafson: Yes. Yeah. I want to pick up the phone from my mom before 1:00 PM so,

Chenell Basilio: oh, geez.

CJ Gustafson: Sorry, mom. Oh,

Chenell Basilio: it's great.

Yeah. Well, okay, so you have all these pieces of content. I'm curious like. You've talked about this before of like you will listen to other podcasts in this space and like through just conversations on the podcast that you run, you come up with topics to write about. So is that still your, like how you're coming up with topic ideas or are you Yeah.

Using other strategies Now, as much as I

CJ Gustafson: hate hearing my own voice, I take my dog for a walk every morning and I know that like my podcast drops on Monday. And Thursday. So I'll listen to that episode while I walk 'em, and hopefully I come up with one idea and then when I get back to my desk, I pull up the transcript.

So I pay my producer a little bit extra to have like a. Really rock solid transcript that I can go into and try to pick out quotes that support what I'm doing. And then what I did is I created GPT by uploading over 200 transcripts. So I can just say like, have [01:30:00] I talked to anybody about roll-up strategies in private equity?

I'd be like, yeah, you talked to this person, this person, this person. It's like, okay, now I have enough. And so what I've found is like, if I can think of the title for a piece and the title usually just starts with listening to a podcast. Either I've done or someone that I follow, like I can write the rest.

Then it's just finding supporting evidence and layering it on. But it's like, then I'm off to the races.

Chenell Basilio: That's super smart. Yeah. It's always weird hearing your voice on like another podcast or even your own, I might have to try that.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah. I also listened to it on 1.3 x. Some people are crazy. Listen to it on like two x, but I think that helps me just like, um, it helps me so my mind doesn't drift as much in between people talking.

I gotta like keep the cadence up a bit. Um, while I'm listening, I don't know if anybody cares about that comment though.

Chenell Basilio: I do the same exact thing.

Dylan Redekop: I can't listen to anything under 1.5 just 'cause I, I find like, I'm just like, my mind drifts and I start getting bored or distracted. It's like that. I kind of, I don't know.

I need like the fast, faster speed. For some reason, yeah.

CJ Gustafson: I mean the inertia still [01:31:00] is real though when it comes to like sitting down and writing something. I think when I had a full-time job, it was like any spare second, I would just be like, open my computer and try to write something. Now that I have a little more leadway sometimes, like I will drift a little bit.

I'll be like, yeah, you know what? I will make myself some scramble eggs this morning before I start. But, uh, yeah, that, that's life now.

Dylan Redekop: Well, you mentioned the. When you had a job, so 'cause you were for a period of time running mostly metrics and had full-time job as a CFO, uh, at what point were you like, okay, let's do this content thing full-time?

CJ Gustafson: So, um, I dunno if I should say this, uh, I don't work there anymore. Um, during, during the last year that I had a CFO job I was making. A lot more money doing my newsletter and podcasts than I was full time being a CFO. But like what was important to me is that I had the credibility of being A CFO and I proved that like I wasn't like some Dante who's just like acting like I knew something, right?

And so [01:32:00] I really wanted to be able to say that I was A CFO. I raised money. And I sold a company, 'cause a lot of people have raised money. There are not a lot of people who have sold the company. It's like maybe 10% or less of that. And so we finally sold the company in January and that was a great outcome for all our investors.

It was nice for me, like everybody likes getting money, but like for me it was like. Just prove to your readers and yourself that like, you know your shit and that you're a credible person and like, have had success before you did this. And so that was really important to me. And so then I made the jump after, like making sure they had everything I needed.

But like I, I was pretty clear that I was firing myself once it was over. Nice. Are

Chenell Basilio: you finding that like having more time throughout the day is like hurting your productivity or are you actually just getting more stuff done?

CJ Gustafson: I think it's both. People are like, oh. It must be nice to not have a boss. It must be nice to run your own company.

You can do whatever you want any hour. And it's like, no, no, no, no boss could ever be as hard on me as I am on me. Like no one says meaner things to CJ than CJ says to himself about like getting stuff done. So [01:33:00] from that perspective, I think I just feel like I'm always on the clock. I am definitely at my computer a lot less though.

I think I'm only at my computer typing or doing some sort of podcast thing, max five hours a day, which is cool because like I can go and. Driving my daughter to, we've been doing karate, which is hilarious and it's fun because like I love that stuff. Um, I can go do that some days, but I'm thinking about what I'm writing about next.

During the car ride, I am thinking about what ad read I need to get from sponsors. So it's kind of like if you work for yourself, you never work a day, but you never get a day off either.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I relate to that. Even when you're off, you're still thinking about everything.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, and that's the part that I've had to try to turn off more.

I've also tried to like instill a couple habits where like I try most days to like leave my phone upstairs once I'm like going down for dinner or something. But like if you don't have a commute either, it's kinda like how do you separate the work life from the home life? I'm interested to see we're going on vacation next week, how much I can truly like stop and, and unplug for a while.

Nice.

Chenell Basilio: Well, good luck. I [01:34:00] hope that works out for you. Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: I've got one more question because CG, you write about. A lot about metrics. What is, what are the main metrics you look for when it comes to your newsletter and like signs that things are going right or wrong or, um, is there, like, is there one kind of crown jewel of a metric that you, that you kind of value above all else?

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, it's an, it's not even really a metric. It's, well, I guess it is, it's how many people stopped and wrote me a reply? Good, bad, or indifferent? If you wrote me an email back to my email, that means like I hit a chord to me. Like if I. Write something and it gets like 58 likes or something on substack.

That's, but like nobody says anything and nobody comments like that. That's so empty to me. 'cause once again, like I was obsessed with the likes for a while. 'cause I was like, oh, that's the number of people who are very quickly actively engaging with it. And then I discovered less than 1% of the people had the app or like you had to be logged in in order to like it.

So it was like, okay. That's more just in my end substack algorithm versus reaching my core audience when they need it. It's when [01:35:00] somebody writes back to me and says like, dude, I was just talking about my, to my boss about this the other day, or This helped me look really smart in front of someone. Or like, this is the dumbest thing I've ever written.

Brad, like, I can't believe you think that. Like that's when I know, that's when I know that it hit. That's awesome.

Dylan Redekop: We've, we've had that response before, right? Chenell, I think that's one of your, even one of your favorite metrics too.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, that's my favorite one is just like, how many replies are you getting?

'cause it's just like, it is the crown jewel. Like if people are replying to your email. You definitely made them think. You made them learn something and they're just like really excited to keep reading. So

Dylan Redekop: Totally. You spark some emotion and it's not just apathetic readers, which is very, very important.

Totally.

CJ Gustafson: And people are busy, like think how, how many emails do you reply to that? Like weren't specifically like just for you? Like it has to be. Great. If you're gonna take time outta your day and say something, it's

Chenell Basilio: not very often.

Dylan Redekop: No. I think we should all reply to more newsletters. Yeah. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: I'm curious.

Okay, so on the topic of reply, so I love the concept of insanely [01:36:00] valuable content, obviously based on like your personality being injected into your content and all of that. I'm curious how you think about making your content more valuable for your readers. Like what? What is the bar that you have for yourself for any specific piece of content?

CJ Gustafson: I think the bar is, if I can. Write something and I'm like, you're gonna understand this. Like, it's like the, if you know, then you know, like certain things, like, I'll give you an example. Like for people who plan fp and a budgets, there's like a joke that like 80% of any learning and development budget at any company goes like completely unused.

So that's like your buffer. And so like if you're writing something and like you find a. Put an if you know, then you know in there and they're like, oh yes. Shit. I, I didn't think of that. Like, that's totally true. That's like, to me, something that's valuable because it's on the job stuff that, like, if you didn't work in that position, you would never know that that's like an earned secret.

So when I read through something, I, I try to also think about it, like which of my. Three audience types is this four, and I recently discovered there's a four, which I can hit on, but [01:37:00] like is this for the person who's the aspiring CFO, who's truly just trying to get better at their job today? And then they also want to signal to their boss and forward it to them.

Like, look how smart I am. I was reading this and found something out. Is it for the CFO's in a seat who forwards it to their team and. Hey, we should add this to the board deck next time. Or is it for the investor who's trying to add value and forwards it to their CFO and says like, Hey, have you ever thought about it this way?

Blah, blah, blah, blah. You should read this. And then the fourth person that I found is there a lot of CEOs. I found that my audience, I just did a poll, is 15% CEOs, which I didn't know, and that's because they're trying to get smarter. On their business and, and figure out which metrics to talk about. But like, I, I always try to think like, hopefully this is useful to everybody, but like ideally there's one person in here who gets that like, oh shit, like that is what I needed today in order to do my job better.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. It's like Akash Gupta always talks about the. Optimizing for the internal share. And it sounds like that's exactly what you're kind of hitting on with your different segments of your audience. Like they're all gonna share it with someone. It's like, which [01:38:00] person am I targeting? Exactly. Think that's interesting.

CJ Gustafson: Make it easy for them to share and make it easy for them to look smart by sharing it. Because people like to signal that too. Like because people used to always forward me like jamming balls, newsletter clouded judgment with like market multiples. I was like, I can tell you're interested in the multiples.

We also just wanna show me that like, you're reading this, not academic, but like super smart economic piece about something too. I was like, what if I could do that? What if I could be the person that they forward because they wanna look good? Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: It's kinda like virtue signaling, but it's like, it's like professional signaling.

It totally is. Yeah. Yeah. PEA talking, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, I guess so.

Chenell Basilio: Amazing. I don't know if Dylan has any more questions. I have one more question, um, that I'm just curious. I wanna get you to explain more about, um, you posted something recently about niches are larger than you think. Niches, niches, whatever.

And you were kind of just giving a, an update of how your podcast was doing and how it was doing better than you had hoped. Uh, and you felt like you hit this inflection point, but you kind of went on to say that like in the beginning you probably thought you were just writing for CFOs and now you, like [01:39:00] you were just alluding to, you have these.

Different buckets of people on there. I mean, I googled how many CFOs are there in the US and there's like 130,000 or something. Somebody might look at your newsletter and be like, well he's already like halfway to, you know, hitting the full tam of that, that audience. But I think you said that was only like 30% of your audience's CFOs and the rest are like these other buckets.

Do you wanna talk more about like how you were thinking about this and like

CJ Gustafson: That actually makes me feel better that my Tim might be larger than I thought. Um. Yeah, I'm only, I'm less than a, I'm less than 20% penetrated. There. It was a quote that hit me. It was like, if you speak loud enough to your core, everyone else.

We'll listen, and everybody like wants to be a part of a club. Everybody wants to be in the know. And if you're talking about something that is like really engaging to the core people, they're like, wow, I want to have that energy too. I wanna learn about that and feel smart. Then I think other people get pulled into the fold at the end of the day, like I'm talking about running a better business.

Yes, it's written [01:40:00] primarily from the perspective of A CFO, but a lot of people out there, regardless of their role, want to be successful. And like making their company grow, making their company profitable, like helping their employees buy houses because like things went well or educating people on like stock options.

So I think like you focus on this one niche and then they share it with other people who are interested and like the most amazing thing about the podcast is like, it went from like 5,000 listings a month to then I was stuck at 10,000 for a while. Then I was stuck at 20,000 for a while, and then it just.

Doubled to 40 and then it doubled to then, then it went to like 50. It's at like 55,000 a month now, which like that is not Joe Rogan. But like if somebody told me two years ago that like a stadium size of people would listen to me talk about metrics and stuff, I'd be like, you're bullshit. Like there, there's not enough people who are possibly interested in that, but what you find are like, they're.

At the end of the day, people, people are eager to learn and, and get better at things. What

Dylan Redekop: do you attribute that

CJ Gustafson: growth [01:41:00] to? Consistency. I think leveling up like, um, and getting better and better guests and climbing that ladder helps. And like, I haven't paid for any of the growth. It's all been the biggest growth hack for a podcast is getting a guest to share it after because they likely have people who.

Are like them and their network, who would be interested in it. So for the CFOs that I interview, they'll have hundreds of CFOs their acquaintances with are in their network, and if they share it, it helps. But I think the consistency over time. I have done a couple giveaways. I don't think they've really worked, but it's been fun.

Just like, Hey, share this with the Slack group. I'll give you a Yeti mug or a hat. And for me that's more just fun. 'cause I know that if you're doing that, you actually like, really, really like my stuff. And I'm like, I want to give you something to like say thank you. Um, so, so that part's been cool.

Dylan Redekop: I feel like there's an opportunity to have like branded mostly metrics, swag.

Or run the numbers swag. Yeah,

Chenell Basilio: just like a picture with your dog on it.

CJ Gustafson: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just, I, I'm into running and so I, uh, there's a cool running hat brand called SLE in, in Canada. [01:42:00] Yeah. And so I splurged and bought like 50, uh, run the numbers hats from them. Oh, that's sweet. That is sweet. Yeah. I'll, I'll

Dylan Redekop: send you, I'll send you each one.

Nice. That would be amazing. I would wear it running. I think Bushnell and I both run, so. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I don't usually wear hats, but I'll wear a hat. Take a picture for you. You wear

Dylan Redekop: that? Wear the hat.

CJ Gustafson: It's a nice hat. You'll wear the hat. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome. Well, cool. I guess, um, so what, what does this look like now?

Like you're starting another newsletter, you have a podcast, like what does, I don't know, the next three years look like for mostly media.

CJ Gustafson: I'm also incubating, um, like a, a data and benchmarking service in the background. 'cause I've always thought that like it can be, uh, media in the front, uh, like a product in the back of some way.

And so the mullet,

Chenell Basilio: the media. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

CJ Gustafson: the mullet. Who wrote about that? Was it Mario?

Chenell Basilio: I have no idea. I know just the way you said it made, it sounded very melody.

CJ Gustafson: That's 'cause it is. It's supposed to be like that party in the front business in the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and like what [01:43:00] I noticed working for marketplace businesses in particular as a CFO, that like once you get to a certain size.

You have the ability to build things that maybe don't have like a bunch of technical risks to them. Like I'm not trying to like create a rocket ship or anything, but I have enough people to weigh in that it creates data that's statistically significant and you can't get it unless you have 66,000 readers.

And so that's what I'm trying to lean into now. And so that's been fun. I mean like it's now not just mostly metrics, it's mostly media. And I have two newsletters, a podcast. It's kind of like. Whatever's interesting to me, I feel like is a good lens of what's interesting to my audience. And um, a lot of companies go out and they try to figure out how do we create this product?

Okay, we created, now let's go search for customers. I look at it like, well, I already have the customers. Lemme just figure out what they want and I'll build them that. Mm-hmm. And so it's just like. The, the whole business equation in reverse. But at the same time, like the media is still the main product.

None of that's possible without the other stuff. So continuing to create better and better stuff. And I just [01:44:00] upgraded the studio, which is nice. I don't look like, I don't look like a boomer on like a, an android trying to do a podcast anymore. So like, just trying to professionalize it a bit more.

Dylan Redekop: And how big is your team?

Because you've, you've talked about, uh, somebody who's managing some sales stuff for you, but like. Somebody listening here would be like, you can't possibly be doing all of this on your own. So like, do you have contractors, W2 employees, or how does, how is it all set up and how big is it

CJ Gustafson: All contractors today, I'm the only one that does the content, so I do all the content.

I don't have any writers or anything like that. Producer sales. Accounting help and a va. That's manageable. Yeah. Really good.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah,

CJ Gustafson: and my wife is awesome because she comes from a marketing background and she helps me with event stuff, so she'll help me get people to the events, book the venues and stuff.

So that aspect, yeah, we didn't

Chenell Basilio: even talk about that. You're doing all these dinners now with CFOs? Yeah, we've done like

CJ Gustafson: 10 or 12 of 'em, which has been nice. Crazy.

Chenell Basilio: That's awesome.

CJ Gustafson: Are those invite only? Yes. So, um, I get like 20 to 30 CFOs in a room, and then we sell four [01:45:00] of the seats to sponsors to be there as well.

So it's cool to meet people that read it. They get a free gourmet, five star chef cooking for them. Yeah, which is cool. And then, uh, like, I'm not like trying to sell them anything either, so it's just like a cool hang. Um, and then the sponsors who were there. They're all sponsors. Like what I try to do with that because like it's extremely valuable to get somebody in person, you have to sponsor either the newsletter or the podcast in order to get access to the events within, we call it the ecosystem.

And so that's worked really well too, where it's like you also get these in-person touch points with people. It's really hard to get a CFO to go to something anyway, so like they're, they're totally excited for that.

Chenell Basilio: And they get to talk about numbers and nerdy stuff, so I'm sure they're, that's fun.

CJ Gustafson: What's hilarious is like. We don't talk too much about business. It's just, um, it's just people being people like, uh, and that's, I think, like, honestly that's also what the sponsors understand about coming. Like, CFOs just like want someone they can trust who's gonna be there when they call. And like, there's a lot of tech out there, [01:46:00] there are a lot of bankers out there that's like there.

Do you build a relationship with somebody? Like, you're a good hangover dinner. Like they're gonna talk to you after that. Um, mm-hmm. So it's, it's been fun. That's awesome. That's smart. I like that.

Chenell Basilio: Well, well I think we're coming up here on the hour, so I just wanna be mindful of that. But I really appreciate you coming on this, this show to cj.

This is awesome. It's been a long time coming. I know, like I said, but, um, I feel like I made it

CJ Gustafson: when you did the growth in reverse write up on me. I was like, I'm, I made it. This is, I peaked. I'm there. I know. I remember along the way you

Chenell Basilio: kept tagging me. You're like, Chenell, I hit 30,000. Save this. And then you're like, I don't have to write

CJ Gustafson: about anyone who's, uh, not.

At 50 yet, I'm like, I'm out like 60 now. And you gotta do it. Like I, I held out this long. Like

Chenell Basilio: That's great. I love it. That is awesome. Well, thanks for coming on. If people wanna go check out your stuff, obviously mostly metrics.com, um, and then you're just CJ Gustafson everywhere, right? Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: It's me.

Chenell Basilio: Nice.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I think people should sign up for your newsletter just to, for the onboarding [01:47:00] experience alone. So like totally see what you c doing. That one was

Chenell Basilio: from the paid newsletter was, so you gotta sign up for the paid side of things. Oh, that was, dang. Well,

Dylan Redekop: hey there, we're gonna get you some more paid subscribers, cj, so go sign up for his paid newsletter.

There's some Easter eggs in that paid sign up. Yeah, there you go. Love it. Awesome.

Chenell Basilio: Well thanks for coming on cj.