AUDIO - Adding Friction To Your Newsletter Sign-up Process

Dylan Redekop: [00:00:00] There was a period of time where it was, it felt like every other email I was getting, I was like, I don't remember subscribing to this or how I subscribed to this. I think we're gonna get to this point where we're gonna be all very oversubscribed.

Chenell Basilio: It can be really easy to get so focused on that bigger subscriber count, but you don't realize, like sometimes people with big lists don't have the quality of subscribers.

You end up with a larger list. Than you probably would've otherwise. Mm-hmm. Of people who might not really want your content.

Dylan Redekop: That opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to friction and types of subscribers and that sort of thing that we could get into. But friction isn't necessarily a bad thing.

It's not always in your best interest to reduce it at all costs.

Chenell Basilio: Welcome back to the Growth in Reverse podcast. I'm Chenell.

Dylan Redekop: And I'm Dylan.

Chenell Basilio: And we're in Boise, Idaho. Coming at

Dylan Redekop: you.

Chenell Basilio: I-R-L-I-R-L-I-R-L. Live

Dylan Redekop: for the first time.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. Well, second time

Dylan Redekop: people don't need to know that, but yeah. We are in Boise. Yes, we're at the Kit studios. We are, we are right in the thick [00:01:00] of the Craft and commerce conference.

Mm-hmm. And as part of the conference, they've let us use these kit studios for free. We just had to book the time. Yep. And, um. It's been great. It's like a, it's such a really very cool and handy resource that they've let us use.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, you just sit down and like hit record. Yeah. And then we have like this beautiful space with perfect lighting

Dylan Redekop: and if you can't hear us, it's their fault, not ours.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. So what brings us to this room today? What are we gonna chat about?

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, so we kind of talked about this a little bit in a recent episode, but the concept of. Introducing friction. Mm-hmm. Into newsletters. And you and I have talked about this. I think the fact that. We've gotten so far in the other direction of like making it super simple, finding as many subscribers as possible and people aren't necessarily talking all of all that much about quality and like adding friction back into the process.

Mm-hmm. To make sure you're getting the right folks. So

Dylan Redekop: yeah, I think the pendulum has swung very far. One way to like, like you said, make it as simple as possible to get subscribers by doing tons of different things. We've talked on the podcast [00:02:00] about only having an email field or eliminating any other options for people to do on the landing page using recommendations potentially.

Um, and. And cross promotions, that sort of thing. Um, I know Spark Loop even had like the, the magic link back in the day where you could, oh yeah, just click once and you were instantly subscribed to that newsletter in, in somebody else's recommendation. Um, so like a one click subscribe. So all these things have stripped away any friction that people used to have.

When it came to subscribing to newsletters and that was like as people who were like trying to grow an audience. That was a great thing. Um, but it comes to downsides.

Chenell Basilio: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you end up with a larger list than you probably would've otherwise. Mm-hmm. Of people who might not really want your content.

Yeah. And are just, you know, archiving it or filtering it out somewhere, not reading it. And then you're open rates go down, the quality is not as high. And so you get frustrated as a creator and it just has all these downward effects. I think it can for sure. Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: And you can be smart about the way. That you are ensuring that these subscribers coming from these different [00:03:00] paths, um, are going to be.

The right kind of subscriber for you, but I think that's what we wanna talk about, right? It's like how do we, what can we do to add a little bit more friction back into the whole subscribing and onboarding process so that you are not just getting some Vagrant subscriber who just kind of came along through a recommendation or some other.

Avenue and is not wanting to stick around, not opening a single newsletter, that one that you're potentially paying for, right? You're potentially paying for the subscriber. So this could be costing you money as well. So I think it's an important topic.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, I agree. Okay. That's why we're here today.

Dylan Redekop: So where should we start?

Um, we've kind of gone over the concept of friction. Mm-hmm. But let's talk about maybe just the. A little bit more in depth kind of the downsides of why we would want to add some friction. Like what is really ultimately the kinda the worst case scenario that could happen for people who are getting tons of subscribers who are just not engaging?

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I mean, hypothesize about the worst case, but I think if you think back to like the goal of the newsletter, like we want to potentially make sales and like [00:04:00] have sponsors be happy or any partners we're working with that are actually getting other customers from our email list. Mm-hmm. You want those things, you don't just wanna see the number go up.

Yeah.

And so it can be really easy to get so focused on that bigger subscriber count. Especially when you see other folks with these huge lists and you're like, oh, they must be making millions of dollars. Mm-hmm. I want that. But you don't realize like the back end of, of the thing. Um, and sometimes people with big lists don't have the quality of subscribers, especially these days with how easy it is to grow a newsletter with recommendations and that kind of thing.

Yeah. Um, you can look at someone who has this huge list, but it might not be as good as you think it is.

Dylan Redekop: Do you wanna talk to your own experience in, in those two regards, just to give some people some context that you've kind of experienced this to some degree? Yeah. When it comes to both, uh, the creator network, which is, which is.

By and large, a great initiative and a good thing I think. Um, but there's elements that you can incorporate that we're gonna talk about to make it even better for you. Um, so there's that. And then also like cross promotions 'cause you've experienced, [00:05:00] um, that end as well. Yeah. Um, so maybe share, 'cause your list, you get, you get a lot of new subscribers every day 'cause you're pretty popular in the creator world and the Creator Network.

A lot of people are recommending your newsletter. So what does that impact on you and how, what's that experience been like?

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, it's funny because. For a long time I wasn't cleaning my list as well as I probably should have been. So now I'm like hyper cleaning my list, I feel like. And so growth has definitely slowed in some regards.

I'm like, I probably talked to these people three months ago. My list is probably the same size just because I keep deleting people. Mm-hmm. And like. I'm not using paid ads or anything yet, so it's kind of staying stagnant, even though you said yet. Um, so even though like I'm adding about the same people, I'm, I'm removing.

Mm-hmm. Um, but you know, open rates start to go up and like there are more signals of people being engaged and happier on the list. And I think for a long time I was just like adding, uh, subscribers through recommendations and I was like, I should. Probably do something with these people. Yeah. Because a lot of them are not opening to the extent as like an [00:06:00] organic subscriber would.

Yeah. Like a typical subscriber.

Dylan Redekop: So there's two things that come to mind. One is if you're reducing as much friction as possible on the opt-in, then you need to really kind of hedge your bets on the back end, on the onboarding process when people are actually coming in so that you can. They can show you that they are meant to be there.

Mm-hmm. That they're gonna be engaged and a valuable subscriber or, you know, get the hell out kind of thing. Right. Like, get outta here. We don't, we don't want your cold email subscriber tendencies. Yeah. Um, you're not serving us or any of our partners. So, um, that's one thing. And then the other, the other other element of it is, um, if you don't do that, you can just really add a ton of friction up front.

To make sure that the person who's subscribing definitely wants to subscribe. Yeah. And there's a few few ways you could do that. And I, it takes me back to like maybe 10 years ago when I was working in corporate marketing and I would be looking at, um, reports that I wanted to download from maybe a company like HubSpot, for example, comes to mind and [00:07:00] you had to fill out like six fields.

Oh yeah. Like your first name, last name, place of work, number of employees. So you basically had this whole like survey. To get this white paper or this, this resource. And I remember I usually would fill it up. Sometimes I'm just like, I just don't want this information bad enough to fill all this out, or I don't want to give them the information they're asking me.

Um, so I think that's one way. If you don't want to do the backend stuff or you don't have the ability or the knowledge to do that, one, you should probably learn. But two, um, you could definitely add the more friction upfront. So there's kind of two ways to go about the. The whole friction thing.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. And you, you could think about it like, like I'm someone who's like, I'd rather get more people on my list and kick them off later.

Yeah. If they're not engaged or whatever. Just because I don't know, I, I don't like making people I know personally as a user, I hate those forms. Yeah. And HubSpot still does it. Workweek definitely does this now where it's like first name, last name, job title, industry, like annual income. And I'm like, can't we ask that like on the next.

Screen. [00:08:00] Yeah. But their, their email lists are probably super high quality. Um, they are, and

Dylan Redekop: they, they have B2B advertisers. Yes. They have people they need to make sure are in the right audience. Yeah. And they also want that information, the demographic information too.

Chenell Basilio: Right. And so we also should probably mention that both workweek and HubSpot are B2B first.

So in that space, I'm sure that's a. Great thing to do. Mm-hmm. Like, you're going to get those people to fill that out. But for just like a, an average creator, like they probably don't need that right away. Like, yes, getting data is important, but maybe get it on the thank you page or in the welcome email or something like that.

So you still can get that data. It just doesn't have to be right away.

Dylan Redekop: That's right. Yeah. That's right. So let's talk about different ways that. People can maybe add a bit of friction into their, I just realized I'm not wearing my glasses, and so I don't want to throw people off.

Chenell Basilio: So,

Dylan Redekop: uh, I'm gonna put them on because why?

Chenell Basilio: No, no. Okay. Not halfway through. Get outta here.

Dylan Redekop: And I lost my train of thought, but we were gonna talk about [00:09:00] yes, the ways that, uh, people can add friction. So whether it's in the signup or even in the onboarding process, just to make sure that the person who's coming all the way through is meant to be there.

Chenell Basilio: Um, so I guess the fir the obvious one, like on most of my forms, I just ask for email address. Mm-hmm. You could ask for a first name. Mm-hmm. That adds a little bit of friction. Yep. Not a ton, but it's still showing a little bit more intent on the subscriber.

Dylan Redekop: Yep. And the bonuses. Then you can always use that personalization element, right?

Yeah. In your newsletter. Um, if need be, some people. Like that and use it all the time. Some people don't. That's fine, but at least you have it. Yeah. Which is, which is fun. Um, what's another way,

Chenell Basilio: um, we can do double opt-in. Mm-hmm. Which I don't necessarily recommend, but maybe doing false double opt-in instead where it, to the, the user and the email subscriber, it looks like.

The real double opt-in on the backend. Like if they don't click that button in the first email or the link that you ask them to, they're still on your list and you can like reengage them with another email and like make sure they're real. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the times that will save a subscriber. So yeah, if you just have straight double [00:10:00] opt-in, you can often lose people that you would've otherwise had.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Because if you're not aware, just what double opt-in is, different ESPs to kind of. Cover their butts to some degree. They want to make sure that the person who is subscribing is a real person. They get the email to their real email, email address, and that email will basically say, thanks for signing up, but please confirm.

Um, your subscription and you click a button in that email and that does the trick. If you don't have that subscriber, click that button, they sit in like this limbo, purgatory place where you can't email them. Right. Um, I mean, unless you manually add them to your email list, which is definitely a no-no.

Yeah. Um, but you can actually email them. They're not included in your email list. They're unconfirmed in kit. As an example. And so you're kinda just stuck and they might be lost forever and they might have been a, a good subscriber. Um, you'll just never know. And I think we had, we've mentioned this before on the podcast, but uh, uh, Dave and Marsden Klein were on the podcast and they told us they had almost a larger number of people in their [00:11:00] unconfirmed list than they had actually on their email list.

Confirmed, yeah. And it was like to the upwards of 50,000 subscribers. Yeah. That were unconfirmed. That's where you could definitely create a double opt-in of your own, where it's like a false double opt-in. They're still automatically confirmed, but you're adding this point of friction of like, Hey, click this button to confirm.

And if they don't, then maybe you could send 'em into an automation that's like, Hey, we need to check on these people who aren't clicking. Yeah. Tag them and then. We will send them a re-engagement campaign in 14 days, in 30 days, whatever that might be. And if they aren't actually clicking and opening our emails, then we just get rid of them.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. This is my favorite way to do things too, just because. I don't know. I'm like a digital hoarder in a sense, but also like I have had this happen to me where, you know, I'll subscribe to something, I miss that email. Yeah. And then I'm like, where is that newsletter? Yeah. And then like sometimes I'll remembering like re resign up, but other times like I don't and I just forget.

Yeah. And I. Could have potentially been a good subscriber, but I don't know, they don't have me on the list. Michelle could

Dylan Redekop: have done a deep dive on you Right. But you had [00:12:00] single opt-in,

Chenell Basilio: but also like I know it, there is some legalities with it, so we don't wanna like tell everyone not to do double opt-in.

Dylan Redekop: Totally. Yeah. So, um, some European countries and some other places definitely are basically a legality that you have a double opt-in. Yeah. Um, set up on your email, so we are not lawyers or financial advisors, so don't take this as financial

Chenell Basilio: advisors.

Dylan Redekop: Don't take this as financial or email, um, legality advice.

Yeah, totally. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: Cool. Do you wanna talk? I don't. Is there anything like that mostly comes to mind for. Like the generic ways to add friction, because I have some interesting ideas and things I've seen, but,

Dylan Redekop: oh, um, the first name, uh, I guess another way we, we tell people to keep their landing pages super simple.

Yeah. So, um, again, with an organic subscriber, I think you'll run into this a lot less with somebody who comes through organically. Maybe they click through your LinkedIn profile, they land on your landing page, they sign up. Um, I think that person is far less likely to be a quote unquote. [00:13:00] Bad or poor quality subscriber, right?

So adding friction there may not necessarily make sense. However, if you are driving traffic, um, in other ways, that is gonna see a lot more, um, eyeballs or a lot more traffic from places that might not be the most ideal subscribers. If you're doing a collaboration or cross promotion or whatever that might be, that's where you could add some of these elements.

And the other one that we talk about is. Even adding like your, your navigation menu back in. Just like having a distraction potentially either guide them somewhere else or have them really focus on, no, I just, I wanna subscribe to this newsletter. It's kind of a weird one, but we've tried to strip down this landing page to make it like super clearly focused on, just enter your email address and hit subscribe.

Yeah. That maybe adding different components, I guess is my main point on your homepage just to see. What happens and if, if they'll actually subscribe, could be one way to add friction.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I, I think again, it goes back to goals like and traffic sources. Yeah. Because if you're running Facebook ads or something, you probably wanna add some friction.

Yeah. Make sure they're like good quality. Especially if you're running Facebook ads with [00:14:00] like your only targeting lookalike audiences of actual subscribers or customers. Mm-hmm. You wanna make sure that they're actually good people. Yeah. Versus like just getting every single person through. Uh, which make makes me think of Facebook ads with lead forms.

Have you ever seen these?

Dylan Redekop: Ooh, I don't think so.

Chenell Basilio: So when I don't

Dylan Redekop: go on Facebook. Okay. Anyway, keep going. Well,

Chenell Basilio: it's with Instagram too. Okay. But, so a lead form ad is typically, or a lead ad is typically people will see the ad, they click the button and it auto opens this form. Okay. Within Facebook. And Facebook says, do you wanna auto fill your email address?

And to me that is the opposite of friction. Mm-hmm. Like you're making it super simple, which is great in a way. If you're going for pure number and you're just trying to build a million subscriber email list, fine.

Yeah.

However, for most of us, you probably wanna add some friction and make sure these are high quality leads, and if it's way too easy to get someone on your, on your list from a paid ad, I wonder if that's the best route.

Yeah. So. On Facebook, you can either do that or you can send them to a, a landing page. Yeah. Where then they have to go through the normal [00:15:00] process. So I'm not sure, I guess the, the jury's out there, but, Hmm. I have to wonder if there's something to making it way too simple on Facebook.

Dylan Redekop: I think you should probably incorporate a little bit of friction there.

Yeah. At least that's my first thought. Also, depends on what your advertising, so there's the, I'm just advertising my newsletter. Mm-hmm. Or I'm advertising like a lead magnet. Mm-hmm. Or a report, and then you're added to my email list that opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to friction and types of subscribers and that sort of thing that we could get into.

But I guess my, my one thought is like, what would you defer to, uh, I know people, I. Are doing Facebook ads to both, but if like you were to run ads, um, I know this isn't an ad show, but what would you run to and how would that landing page look to make sure that you're getting people who are interested, but also like making sure that you're not getting people who are just like window shoppers.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I think, and one of the things on my list was like make sure that on the landing page you are calling out the exact subscriber. And I think something fun to do would actually be like. And I don't know how this would work, so don't take this Yeah. As like [00:16:00] gospel, but have like the email subscriber box and then underneath instead of like A-G-D-P-R checkbox have a checkbox that says, I agree that I am trying to grow my newsletter.

Or Oh, okay. Like for me, for example? Or, yeah. Or fill in the blank of,

yeah. Or

like, I agree that I am a B2B founder looking to scale my company or something just to show an extra step of intent. I think that could be a cool. Little element.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, a little bit of friction. Yeah. But not too hard. And sort of like it makes you confirm that you are kind of that avatar of person that they want to have on their list and that you actually will get value from it.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I think that could be a cool way to like self-select and like mm-hmm. Have them show intention of like taking action on what you're gonna give them.

Dylan Redekop: Mm-hmm. But also probably have the GDPR thing too. If they need it. If you need it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I get you, I get what you're saying.

That is, that is an interesting way. Do you have any other clever ideas like that?

Chenell Basilio: Uh, well I remember I used to be subscribed to a newsletter from Miles Beckler. Okay. He was like an affiliate marketing guy, I think. Yeah. Um, and at. He used to put his unsubscribe link at [00:17:00] the very top of every single email.

So like most people, I love it. Put it at the bottom or like maybe try and hide it a little bit. He was like, Nope, if you don't wanna be on this email list, it's right at the top. Yeah. And he would send a daily email. So like, I think that's a, a good use of that. Mm-hmm. Um, but I still think you can do something similar with weekly, but Yep.

Yeah, I totally agree. Making it super simple to unsubscribe.

Dylan Redekop: I'm all for that and I've never understood. Why people hide a unsubscribe link. Yeah. Like making it hard for people to leave your email list so people who already don't like what you're putting out there, don't wanna receive your emails, and you're pissing them off that much more by hiding, or like burying really tiny font unsubscribe.

It's like you're just asking to get like flagged and, yeah, I don't know. It just. It doesn't make sense to me. I feel like,

Chenell Basilio: I feel like banks and like e-commerce brands do this a lot. Like bigger e-commerce brands. Yeah. Not like the smaller ones. Yeah. They'll like make it the same color as like the background of the email.

I'm like, that is a, that's definitely not legal and b

Dylan Redekop: shady,

Chenell Basilio: that's, so your list quality is probably so low.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. Yeah. I mean they probably just [00:18:00] don't care.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. Or you get, you force Gmail to like clip your email right before the unsubscribe thing. Right. So then you have to hit like show full email.

Right, right. Driving drives me insane.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, I've, I've had that experience too, which also drives me insane. I don't know if they've intentionally done it, but I'm like, this is a lot. Like I'm trying to find the unsubscribe and it's always clipped and I gotta open the whole thing. And I have a feeling

Chenell Basilio: some of them are intentional now.

This

Dylan Redekop: is the point of friction, unsubscribe friction, which we don't Yeah, I do. We don't want to create. Yeah. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: I think that's, that's an interesting one. Uh, just keeping your list quality super high. Yeah.

Dylan Redekop: Just to go back to that unsubscribe thing. I love that idea because I put that in my welcome email.

Like front and center. Yeah. Because I want people who are getting that. 'cause your welcome email is gonna be your most open email. Mm-hmm. Um, so I've got the best opportunity to make sure you're like, you're in or you're out. Mm-hmm. So I want to make that unsubscribe option very. Obvious so you don't miss it.

And it's like, do you wanna be here or not? Here's what my newsletter's about and what to expect. And if you're not, if you're out, that's cool. Like we can still be friends. Um, or we don't have to [00:19:00] be, you can unsubscribe. Um, either way. I don't want you to be here if you don't wanna be here. Yeah. And that's kind of the, the idea I, I approach it with, or the mentality approach with,

Chenell Basilio: especially, especially with like recommendations.

Yes, exactly. Uh, definitely have that box up there at the top. Mm-hmm. Um, I've seen people like Chris Hutchins does this with his newsletter right at the top. He'll put. You know, Hey, you subscribe via recommendations if you don't want this unsubscribe. Yeah. No hard, like, whatever. No hard feelings. Uh, and he keeps that on for like the first month I think, of a new subscriber's journey.

Mm-hmm. So it's, it's nice to remind people, especially if they're coming from recommendations, like having a unique welcome email or unique sequence is great.

Mm-hmm.

If they get past that welcome email and they still are like, I don't remember who this person is, or they miss the welcome email. Yeah. And it's like, wow, where is this email coming from?

Totally. So having that recommendations, like unsubscribe box is awesome.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. I think it's important. I, I know I'm. I've mentioned this before, but I just keep it on every broadcast. I've got a, it's like it's smaller font, so like you kind of have to, I don't know, zoom in a little bit. [00:20:00] Um, I mean, it's not so small, you can't read it.

But my point is like, I've got this like block at the top and it basically says, Hey, you're receiving just a reminder why you're getting this email. You signed up via x, y, Z channels. Um, and if you don't wanna be here, here's the unsubscribe. And it's not,

Chenell Basilio: you do that for every email, every email. But what if they've been on for like three months?

Dylan Redekop: They see it, they then, then, then it just becomes part of the background. It's background scenery, and they, they just kind of ignore it.

Chenell Basilio: Huh. I wonder if you could, like, if they've like opened a hundred percent of your emails or like clicked on 50%, if you could just like remove that box?

Dylan Redekop: I probably could. I probably could.

Maybe I need to do some liquid code action to like take it off. This person has a hundred percent open rate. Okay. They don't need to see it every time. Yeah, yeah. No, I've just, I set it up that way and I think I just got really sick of getting emails myself. Yeah. Where. And there was a period of time where it was, it felt like every other email I was getting, I was like, I don't remember subscribing to this or how I subscribed to this.

Or even if it was somebody who had, hadn't sent an email in like months or maybe even a year. Like I totally forgot who they are or, or. Maybe they changed their newsletter. Like all [00:21:00] these things. I think we just like internalize, like everybody knows who I am not from an ego standpoint, you're almost like from a self-conscious, like, oh, they know who I am and I feel guilty that I've been away for so long, and so like, Hey, it's me and you're kind of like, what?

I don't, I don't remember you. Or like, I read two of your newsletters before you went on this like year long break or whatever it is. So I guess I got too many of those and I'm just like, I'm putting this thing in here and I'm just gonna leave it. So yeah, it's there every time. Okay. Yep. That's

Chenell Basilio: interesting.

Dylan Redekop: It also has links. To my landing pages for other resources, so I know there's. Opportunity there for people to click through if they wanna check out those. Okay. If they're curious. So I can have it too. Anyway, digressing.

Chenell Basilio: What else? Any, any others that you were thinking of?

Dylan Redekop: Any other points of friction? Um, I could pull up my notes, but really I think it just comes down to like, to, to a degree.

Like what kind of newsletter are you building? Um, I think we've talked about like creator newsletters versus like. Big media newsletters. Mm-hmm. Um, or B2B newsletters. So people like, um, Adam over at Workweek, um, and his whole team, um, and [00:22:00] that sort of thing. They want to make sure they have the right subscriber.

Right. Yeah. And so they, they add that friction. I think that's supported. And Adam's a pretty, uh, he's a pretty big proponent of doing that sort of thing. He was very, uh, I'm, I'm, I'll just say it. He's very like anti recommendations. Yeah. Right. He just thinks co-reg is like the devil to some degree. Like it works, but it's.

It's crap for quality. He worked at the Hustle and they, he saw that sort of thing behind the scenes play out. So I mean, but if you are building this larger, trying to build this, is it a numbers game for you, then? Yeah. You wanna eliminate as much friction as possible. If you just wanna get this really big email list and you're trying to sell impressions and eyeballs to advertisers, then I could see where you wouldn't want to create that friction.

The argument on the other hand would be, well, don't you want good return for those advertisers? Yeah. And good open rates, so it kind of still matters.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, definitely. The one other thing I was thinking about that would be kind of interesting to test is like create a welcome sequence that like people have to take certain actions to actually get added to your mm-hmm.

Email list. Mm-hmm. [00:23:00] I don't know who would do this, but I think it's an interesting idea to say like, okay, over the next six days or seven days, you're gonna get. Emails. Mm-hmm. And please complete all the actions and then I will send you a bonus gift and you get added to the email list or something. Yeah.

It would be for a very specific type of creator, I think. Yeah. But there is something to that of like having people A, start learning to open your emails and take action and B is just like making sure they're engaged. Um, yeah. So I don't know. That's probably way overkill, but it is, if you wanna add friction, it's, it's something you could try,

Dylan Redekop: you could, you totally could.

I think that would work better with like somebody who is coming new to the newsletter space, who has some kind of celebrity status to some degree, where they have a big audience already or maybe got a huge Instagram falling or whatever that might be. And you're trying to start this newsletter thing, but you don't want like every single one of your Instagram followers, I dunno why that might be the case, but maybe you just know that like.

Only 2% of those people are actually gonna ever buy anything from you or whatever that number might be. Might be maybe,

Chenell Basilio: maybe this is better for like a re-engagement.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, that could be

Chenell Basilio: like, you have a list, you haven't emailed them in a [00:24:00] year. It's like, hey, over the next three days I'm gonna do a couple things.

Like if you wanna keep getting this email, like don't just click 'cause I'm getting so. Un confident with click triggers. Mm-hmm. And like link triggers and all that stuff, because you know, bot opens and clicks and all that. I'm just like not convinced that those are actually all real people

Dylan Redekop: who are clicking their mouse and actually like wanting to Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: Like I'm sure a good percentage are, but I feel like the bot system changes so frequently that certain things just like get through the, like slip through the cracks and you end up with like, I don't know, I remember sending emails before where. In the first 30 seconds, it's like, oh my God, I have 800 people who click this link.

There's no way. No. So

Dylan Redekop: apple mail.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah,

Dylan Redekop: yeah, yeah.

Chenell Basilio: So I don't love the link trigger option, just 'cause I don't feel like it's as concrete. But

Dylan Redekop: do you know definitively if those apple mail or whatever bot clicks, if those will trigger. Like a link trigger or if those will like tag people. If you've set like a tag on that link.

Chenell Basilio: Nathan Barry was actually talking about this the other day. Okay. He said they have systems [00:25:00] that work well, but this the, the bots and then like the Apple mail things like they get so convoluted to like the bots will, or the apple mail will look for bots. So the bots try and act like humans. It's like a really complex thing and it gets.

So hard to stay on top of that. Like it's almost impossible to catch them all and like they're just constantly evolving. Yeah. Which is why I don't trust link triggers as much. It's my spicy take. I haven't used them in a very long time. I will go back like after seven days and tag some of those people afterwards.

Okay. If I think they're actually like, nothing went crazy and like that link didn't get like over clicked, if you will.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: Uh, like 20% of my email list didn't click it. Yeah. Um,

Dylan Redekop: yeah. You found when you put. Just anecdotally when you put links in images Oh, yeah. In your emails. Yeah. Those like your links or your click link are like through the roof.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I think Jeremy Ns actually taught me this one. It was like, oh, did was he's, if you put an image in your email mm-hmm. And then link something on the back end of it, it. It like ruins your clicks.

Dylan Redekop: That's just flagged for [00:26:00] spam, I guess. And I've seen that.

Chenell Basilio: I think it doesn't happen every time, but I would say 80% of the time I do that it completely jacks up the links.

Yeah, yeah.

Dylan Redekop: And ever since you taught me that, I have not done it. So I, I can't verify whether this is true or not on my end or whether it happens to me or not. But yeah, I found that really interesting. Yeah. And a good warning. 'cause I'm just like, no, I'm not doing that.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. Which is why like, I try not to put YouTube videos in the emails, but some days I'm like, well, let's just see what happens.

Dylan Redekop: But what about like, you know how Kit and most, um, platforms will embed the thumbnail Yeah. Right. With the play button,

Chenell Basilio: but it still has a link behind it. I

Dylan Redekop: know, but

Chenell Basilio: is

Dylan Redekop: that a link or is that an embed?

Chenell Basilio: It's still a link in, or sorry,

Dylan Redekop: is it an image? I mean like, 'cause that would be, to me, that feels like that would be different than

Chenell Basilio: we're getting so nerdy with this one.

I don't know. Yeah, we are. We'll have to test it out and see. I think we're,

Dylan Redekop: we're in over our heads here. I think. I think the whole point is like, friction isn't necessarily a bad thing and it, for the last five to 10 years, it's like been viewed probably as like reduce it at all costs. Yeah. I think our whole, our whole message here is like, it's not always in [00:27:00] your best interest to reduce it at all costs,

Chenell Basilio: right?

Dylan Redekop: Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: A couple of things I will say. Collaborations. Mm-hmm. Recommendations. Like try and get the most quality, high quality partners you can. Because if you go after just like anyone and everyone, you're going to end up with more subscribers that you don't necessarily need. Yeah. And aren't the right people.

I just feel like that needs to be talked about in this conversation.

Dylan Redekop: It's a very valid point. It's a very valid point. But yeah, there are definitely ideal collaborative and unideal collaborators for sure. Um, one other idea, I, when we were just kind of spitballing talking about this episode was like the, the anti-growth email.

Yeah. So maybe there's. It would only work for a certain probably type of creator person newsletter. Um, but if you just had like a, um, you only get added to my email if you perform certain actions kind of along the lines of what you're saying. I. And I'm only allowing a certain number of people to subscribe.

Chenell Basilio: I've talked about doing this before, like only 20,000 or 10,000 on my email list. Yeah. And like throwing everybody out. And if you don't open the emails or click on specific links or something, like you're get kicked off and somebody else can take your [00:28:00] place. Yeah. I think that's a cool concept.

Dylan Redekop: I think it is.

'cause we're so focused on like grow the list, grow the list, grow the list. And it's not like, what if we could just give like a hundred percent open rate? Yeah. But there's only like. A thousand people on your list.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah. I wonder if it's, if we're thinking about it wrong and it's not necessarily a cap, it's just like hyper engagement Engagement.

Yeah. Like Ma, if you don't like you better click on this link. Or I

Dylan Redekop: swear to God no.

Chenell Basilio: Like in the beginning of ev of your emails, instead of saying that, you should say, like, if you wanna say on here, I only look for people who open 75% of my emails or something.

Dylan Redekop: Yep. But they would have to open the email to see that.

Chenell Basilio: If it's in every email, I would hope they'd see at least one. That's true. If not, that's true. They are not supposed be there. Or that could be your welcome

Dylan Redekop: email, right? Yeah. If you wanna stay on the list, you better open. Yeah. Or Or you would be removed.

Chenell Basilio: You could give people like every month or something, have like a new prize or like something cool.

Mm-hmm.

Dylan Redekop: Like

Chenell Basilio: special, like Justin Moore special research or something he's found.

Dylan Redekop: That's true.

Chenell Basilio: And then like if you've opened so many emails, you actually get that sent to you. And if you don't. You don't.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah. And you can do that now automatically in some ESPs where it's like, it, it can check and see if you open it.

Of course, [00:29:00] again, yeah. Apple mail not perfect, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or

Chenell Basilio: maybe you have to fill out a poll like Caitlyn Burgo does now with her Friday emails. Yeah, that's right. Like you have to fill out one poll a week or something. Then you fill

Dylan Redekop: out, just click, like you just click Yeah. A, a selection, right.

A poll. A poll, poll question answered. Yeah.

Chenell Basilio: Well, the cool thing with polls. And why they're different from Link triggers is like there's that second action that's like you have to confirm it that a bot can't do that. That's bot, I don't think proof.

Dylan Redekop: Well, I'm sure they can. Yeah. But it's more bot proof, I guess.

Chenell Basilio: I think of like those old school TV shows where the kid would have like a chicken hitting the space bar to like match,

Dylan Redekop: make sure. Was that Homer Simpson maybe? Yeah, it was. It totally was. Oh my God. Back when The Simpsons was relevant and good. Um, yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. I, I really like that idea.

And I think we could have a whole episode on like how you could like just gamify your newsletter a bit more Yeah. And make it more, I dunno, engaging. Yeah. And like, I open certain newsletters because like maybe they have like a trivia question or there's adding a element of like, fun and intrigue and, and gamification to it, I think could be a lot of fun.

Like creating

Chenell Basilio: [00:30:00] FOMO more. Mm-hmm. Like in more than You got a new article this week. Yeah. Like, yeah.

Dylan Redekop: Well, yeah. Like so did 50 other people sent me a new article. Totally. And I can't read them all. Yeah, no, I think that's, this is all, I think we're gonna get to this point where. Just things need to change because we're gonna be all very oversubscribed.

Yeah. And our subscribers are gonna feel that. And just with more and more recommendations, every time you subscribe to a new newsletter, you're subscribing to three others or five others, or whatever it might be. Just attention is just gonna be so capped. 'cause people have. More newsletters in their inbox and they don't have more hours in the day.

So yeah, something's gotta give.

Chenell Basilio: Yeah, totally. Add more friction.

Dylan Redekop: Let's get frictional. No, no, that's the pod. Alright, that's the po.